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The problem with this is that it's a fully general argument that can apply to basically anything you want it to. "Advocacy of harm" is whatever you want it to be. This is basically just the implementation of what I spoke about in my second and third points in my first post: "This thing is unacceptable for anyone to view" and then later the scope of what falls under this umbrella keeps expanding.
Except it isn't and doesn't. This is a bad faith, dishonest take which I'm positive you understand. It does not apply to, for instance, cotton candy. It definitely applies to Nazis though, who advocate for the violent extermination of people based on their race. The line here is not thin. Draw it wherever you like, but certainly somewhere before "racist genocide advocacy."
Maybe I missed it (I certainly don't even come close to reading every comment posted to the site) but I haven't seen anyone seriously and unironically say "Gee, Nazi tattoos are great, her having one is great, Nazis did nothing wrong!" I have seen a lot of people, myself included, not want her images removed, but that's not a "far-right sentiment", and let's just say that calling it that doesn't exactly alleviate my slippery slope concerns.
This is another bad faith, dishonest argument. A person is not required to literally invoke the mantra "Nazis did nothing wrong" to espouse, defend, or sympathize with far right extremism. Here are some responses from both the image of hers and forum thread after it was made absolutely evident that she had deliberately tattooed a Nazi screed on her ribcage:
"Haters made that lady popular and I love it"
"Go get another booster"
"Touch grass buddy."
"That is one sexy Nazi"
"Anyone who lifts weights is a neo-nasty by today's soy standards. Get a life."
"...To the article by Vice I'd say that people are born unequal by default..."
"nice"
"mic drop. the irony of leftie soy boys calling ANYONE a nazzzi is hysterically funny to me"
Every single one of these is, at minimum, a snide dismissal of the fact that this woman has an extremely specific Nazi motto tattooed in the original German on her torso. And, if we're being intellectually honest about this, we both know that some of these comments come from a place far worse than just callous indifference.
Not that you are, of course, but responses like this are exactly why I do not engage with internet extremists. I am required to be impeccable with my word, to bring incontrovertible, materially affirmative evidence to even suggest that tattooing a Nazi motto on one's body could possibly be construed as problematic. Then the other party can roll their eyes and equivocate.
Again, not suggesting you are yourself anti-Semitic, but the behavior of some here in this community is encapsulated perfectly by a Jean-Paul Sartre quote from 1946:
“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”
Do what you will, but even flippant, ironic support of Nazi ideology, or dismissal that it is an issue is concerning in the extreme, and should always be met with the strongest condemnation. It is only out of my sincere desire that this community progresses and grows that I say anything at all, and I wish you and this space only the best.
Personally, I don’t see the big thing. I mean, that tattoo is deffo a nazi tattoo, and is probably best left out or whatever.
But it is important to remember that muscle men and women tend to lean conservative and often far right in their political leanings. There are a lot of strong religious attitudes, a lot of homophobia and transphobia in parts of the muscle sport community. And that’s despite there being a lot of queer bodybuilders also, especially among the women.
Keeping this open to everyone might be the simplest solution, but IF someone should be censored because of nazi leanings, that tattoo is absolutely more than enough evidence on its own.
But it is important to remember that muscle men and women tend to lean conservative and often far right in their political leanings. There are a lot of strong religious attitudes, a lot of homophobia and transphobia in parts of the muscle sport community. And that’s despite there being a lot of queer bodybuilders also, especially among the women.
... excuse me? Are you blanket-stating that Conservatives are these things? Did you not see the bit that Chainer said right at the outset of this thread to not take it to political posturing or you could potentially get ban-hammered?
The other question is..what does removing it even do? Like what does it accomplish. No one coming to this site is seeking out specific tattoos on women. Theyre getting stuck on muscles. Lol. Removing the pics doesn't do anything. The girl probably won't know or care. No one else will care. The only people to notice will be some users here who liked the muscles.
These internet crusades to remove things so you don't have to look qt it do nothing but push such things into deeper darker and more sketchy recesses of the internet. Thats alllllllllll it does
They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert.
But this is what the opponents of the tattoo have mostly been doing. Trying to create horror, alarm, panic, insinuate evil intentions and evil secret thoughts, assume malice at every turn and justify it all by accusing their opponent of every defect of character.
People are accused of sympathizing with something nobody is either able to define properly or something that nobody has sympathized with. But at the same time people are accused of being both too serious and too flippant about the same thing.
Horror at Nazism is an emotion, almost like an orgasm at the height of a sadomasochistic orgy, a total, all-engulfing ecstasy that is then put into words and attributed to these so-called Nazis and their "sympathizers", putting words into their mouths and thoughts into their minds, which they can't reject, because that only looks like they're hiding something. Instead of actually not believing ninety percent of what the "horrified" person is accusing them of or associating them with.
Basically the logic is that "if you refuse to say the negative thing about her I want you to say, then you must be secretly willing to do the whole Nazi Germany all over again". You just can't argue with that. And the more anyone here is tempted to argue with it, the more it looks like (or some people will make it, with a vengeance, look like) "yeah, he's just playing with everyone and at the same time willing to do the Nazi Germany all over again".
René Girard said that these days you are not allowed to persecute anyone. Except in the name of victims. In the name of victims you are allowed to persecute whomever you like, and only the sky is the limit. Not only that. It used to be that people were persecuted for the sake of achieving some known goal. But in the name of victims you can persecute simply for the sake of unlimited joy of persecuting. You're the only serious person, only moral person, only honest person and only honorable person in this room and everyone else has either a choice to be a guilty liar with all escapes blocked or to agree with you.
There are things though the guilty, evil, Nazi sympathizers can probably agree on. One of them is that both extreme right and extreme left are extremely tasteless and confusing.
But I personally believe that these are not some hideous forces lurking somewhere in the shadows in a physically unknown place, but mostly misguided individuals and government agents. Neo-Nazi movements are usually founded by "former" military intelligence types and they are most usable as publicity stunts in gauging and shaping public opinion. Not only but also by limiting discussion on some very valid and important issues to the level of the idiotic and the caricature. It may well be that Nazism is not and never was a serious or well-defined ideology or philosophy but just a thought-control bogeyman. Almost like Communism.
People in this forum are on average not that smart. This is why a comment like "ha ha, what a cool Nazi" is not a sign of some deep calculated evil. I think such comments should be strongly discouraged and then removed.
Both your messages could be picked apart statement by statement, half of them containing either unfair or unfounded characterizations, wild exaggerations or blowing things out of proportion in other ways and grievous false accusations. This would allow to filter from them a few important statements that are valid and relevant to the situation. Someone else could come up with those valid observations on his own. Except that in this discussion you'd have already accused him of everything and the kitchen sink in advance.
Every single one of these is, at minimum, a snide dismissal of the fact
The thing you quoted from me was said about the Vice article. And is an objectively factual statement. People are born in different circumstances with different physical attributes and sometimes acknowledging this, the very premise of why the Left thinks it is needed, will make you sound dangerously like a Nazi. So it was not a "snide dismissal" of anything, even at maximum. And if you were even a little intellectually honest, you would not go into wildly imagining far worse places. You committed a false accusation and a personal attack and I hereby called you out on it. Have a good day.
Can't say I agree with this stance on things.
The woman with the SS motto tattoo should be removed and banned, quite simple really.
Nowhere else would allow it once it is alerted to them, that includes Instagram which I'm sure are getting reports on her tattoo now. I reported a user for wearing clothing with Nazi symbols and doing Nazi salutes a couple months back. He was gone the next day.
My grandfather fought the Nazis, he spent years as a POW in Poland, he was put on hard labour, he was force marched towards Berlin in one of the harshest winters on record. He saw first hand what the Nazis and SS did to people. He returned home weighing 6st and lost all his teeth. It brought him decades of nightmares and PTSD.
Keep that in mind when you allow a fucking model to have her pictures here where she openly shows support for what they stood for.
As someone who lurks on the forum and has been a long time picture viewer, I would not want to see any Nazi-esque imagery on a woman with muscle. I understand that bodybuilding circles lean conservative and freedom of speech, but it does not exclude the actions of people.
In any case to someone normal it is a hate symbol: adl .org/resources /hate-symbol/meine-ehre-heisst-treue
Outlawed in Germany and Austria, with the German law being: Strafgesetzbuch section 86a. I do not see her using it for art, in fact there was a recent example of someone having the tattoo of the phrase, before finding out that he liked a Facebook page titled ‘Adolf Hitler’s political beliefs.’ The person was entirely cut off a show, so people do still feel very strongly.
vece rnji. hr/ showbiz/rtl-brise-scene-zbog-nacisticke-tetovaze-u-emisiji-ljubav-je-na-selu-vise-se-nece-prikazivati-jurica-1484477%0A
What this means is that Barbara Vitez could never walk on a German beach again with that tattoo located there, and if someone told the authories while she was there she could be arrested for it.
The tattoo while ‘innocent’ to some has caused great harm through its meaning. It might not be used as a motto for the SS anymore, but it is still used for neo-Nazis undeniably. I don’t really like that, and that now the focus isn’t Barbara Vitez’s muscles. The question comes up why would she get a SS motto tattoo in the first place?
Editor’s note: I couldn’t post links due to a new-ish account, but sources are important (and needed) so I put a space between them
The whole thing is just ridiculous. Users should have the ability to blacklist, but on their own account. That way, they can just hide it and not have to call for a witch hunt in threads and comments.
But, it is the cancel culture, now. Only it's extremely selective of what gets cancelled, and is based on feelings.
If you want to talk about nazis maybe you should take it up with the Canadian Parliament, who just gave a standing ovation to a former SS member. They've since "apologized" but only to Jews. I suppose the SS didn't kill anyone else? Our wonderful leaders have carefully preserved nazism since the end of WW2 to be used for their own purposes later on. Worrying about a picture with a distasteful tattoo seems pretty pointless in that context.
@C87:
Keep that in mind
I think you are touching here upon something very important. But probably in the opposite way to what you intended.
In one extreme, saying anything for the picture or the woman to remain in this site is tantamount to willing to do Nazi Germany all over again.
In the other extreme she's probably not a nice person but probably not any worse than ten other women like her who don't have the tattoo.
Like I said elsewhere, I had no clue that SS had such a motto, and I have spent some time reading all kinds of stuff on Nazis and the war. At face value, especially in English, it sounds self-important and cheesy. Just like so many other tattoos.
While you make the connection, most people do not. And even after they've been told about it, they still don't see why it should be a problem. Not because they love and celebrate Nazism, but because it does not mean to them any more than a random quote from the Bible would.
Except that from a Bible quote you usually get a small self-righteous vibe, instead of the ominous discomfort about the person once you know it is a Nazi motto. Nazis are maybe ugly in exactly the same way as the people who fantasize of punching them. Except that Nazis rarely if ever promote unprovoked random violence towards strangers. Joyous, righteous violence and gloating about it is more a thing of the Left.
There are some other tattoos here I'm uncomfortable with, but I have always understood perfectly that there is no reason to ask for censoring them or removal of the picture or the model. I do think to myself that I find the person creepy and then I move on. Saying this for reference. Not telling anyone else what they should do. Only what they could do.
The problem with Nazism, not the real-world one that happened almost a hundred years ago, but the idea as it is known today, is its all-or-nothing nature. So if one picture of one model has a phrase that is not even the main point of the image and you have to zoom in to see it and know the historical reference, it still has the power to mean everything, spread everywhere and ruin everything.
@AlbAva:
It is really strange that a picture with an exposed nipple is removed in minutes, a picture with a nazi motto isn't removed.
You're begging the question. There are reasons for doing or not doing one or the other and these are not the same. But by all means if you find that tattoo a turn-on, just tell everyone immediately.
We may then be one step closer to classifying it as pornography.
@jimmyhats:
Only it's extremely selective of what gets cancelled, and is based on feelings.
This is a psychologically interesting phenomenon that things are judged by association. Also by ignoring that not everyone associates things the same way. So there is no real logic to what gets condemned, censored or canceled. This makes the cancel culture a form of mass psychosis.
If people could present an argument, based on Aristotelian logic, why the tattoo, the image or the model should be removed, it would probably have a much larger chance of happening. Except if no such reason really exists.
I strangely tend to favor removing the image, just to buy silence from the cancel mob. But one of their arguments was that if the picture is not removed then this site will become overrun by Neo-Nazis. But by the same logic, if the picture is removed, this site would be overrun by a woke witch-hunt. The big difference is that Nazis were a historical phenomenon and are therefore recognizable and containable, whereas the cancel culture has a tendency to come up with new victims and oppressors when needed.
Ok one thing to consider in removals:
Anyway, considering how people think and comment on American conservatives on this site, the following would also be on the removal block:
Jodi Boam Shannon Courtney Katie Lee Natalia Kovaleva Anna Cicerelli Kate Hart Stephanie Fleischer Melissa Teich
Plus a host of women that I’ve probably forgotten about but you can find comments around calling them fascists or nazis or far right wackos or whatever. It’s certainly more than this list and certainly more than some would like to admit.
Also I would think promoting would constitute a concerted effort on our part to push her images to the front page or to otherwise give any additional attention above and beyond what other women on the site get.
Jodi Boam Shannon Courtney Katie Lee Natalia Kovaleva Anna Cicerelli Kate Hart Stephanie Fleischer Melissa Teich
The difference between all of those ladies and Barbara Vitez is that Barbara Vitez has a SS slogan tattoo on her. There is still a difference between MAGA and right leaning people, then straight up having “Meine Ehre heißt Treue” tattooed on your upper left midriff.
Plus a host of women that I’ve probably forgotten about but you can find comments around calling them fascists or nazis or far right wackos or whatever. It’s certainly more than this list and certainly more than some would like to admit.
If it’s wrong to say they are all Nazis, then it would not be wrong associating Barbara Vitez with Nazis. If she’s not a Nazi then she should comment on it herself on her pages. I don’t like to throw it around but it’s not hard to see when someone has that clearly tattooed where it is.
The difference between all of those ladies and Barbara Vitez is that Barbara Vitez has a SS slogan tattoo on her. There is still a difference between MAGA and right leaning people, then straight up having “Meine Ehre heißt Treue” tattooed on your upper left midriff.
The fact that this even needs pointing out drives me to despair. But apparently it does, so thanks for doing so. There is a difference between "I disagree with this person's political views, they should be banned", and "I object to the promotion of a literal Nazi slogan".
Again, I'll suggest a Eunhee Kang-style stealth ban.
This applies to all of the women who've been subject to removal demands recently, including Jessica, Stephanie Flesher, and the various women with Nazi accusations, so I thought I'd make a single thread explaining my thinking for all of these, and so that I can link here in the future when this comes up again.
Thanks for being so level-headed and rational about this. That is an increasingly rare quality these says when people become hysterical about anything and everything.
The German Lutheran pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer said, “Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.”
I must agree with others that displaying photos of a woman with a Nazi tattoo crosses a line.
Holding far right (or left) positions is not evil, however some might think it misguided.
Espousing and enabling genocide based on people's race IS evil, pure and simple, and we have seen the cataclysm that ensued when people of conscience maintained their silence out of fear or ignorance.
I think the Vitez photos need to go. There are endless numbers of FBB's not driven by hate to admire here in her place...
@Chainer: Don't let minority rule. Removals would only snowball. Those offended by one thing or another simply need to be ignored. The mission on this is site is simple: GWM.
My thoughts precisely.
God forbid there should be one corner of the Internet that isn't hyper-reactionary and constantly on guard for any molecule of anything which might offend anyone.
it is only clearly and visibly legible if you blow up the photo on your screen. i literally cannot read it as a thumbnail