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I appreciate Tamarok’s reminder that there can be a flexible approach. Let’s all give our feedback and then give the mods a chance.
maybe this is suited for another thread, but a feature that would be nice would be inclusive/exclusive tags in an account. i'm not sure how feasible it is, really, but if i want to see things ABC and not things XYZ, so to curate our feed, this might help to mitigate a lot of this.
as an added bonus, if someone says they don't want to see a transwoman and a photo has been tagged as such we will know they are liars because they are commenting and have the ability to self-curate, at best. at worst they are explicitly leaving it that way to leave bannable comments. idk, maybe too much policing. but the success of social media largely is the ability to self-curate.
Speaking as someone who moderated for many years on here, when 80% of the user-base feels lied to, betrayed and has a meltdown because the handful of cropped 1/2 and 3/4 pictures they have previously seen,voted, commented, Favorited turns out to be be a dude. The flood-gates of 1 votes (now days removal of +1) mass reports daily, nasty unending comments which must be policed every five minutes. Its simply not worth the hassle.
Keep in mind by the original rules, there where very few female bodybuilders even allowed on the site at all. Running or managing any site you need to keep the highest number of people happy. Here is a small list of things people on here get upset about.
A.) People on here get upset when roided bodybuilders girls who are too big allowed on the site B.) People on here get upset when physique girls who are too big are allowed on the site C.) People on here get upset when fitness girls who are too big/small are allowed on the site D.) People on here get upset when figure girls who are too big/small are allowed on the site E.) People on here get upset when bikini girls who are too small are allowed on the site F.) People on here get upset when lean naturally muscular girls who are too small are allowed on the site
Speaking as someone who moderated for many years on here, when 80% of the user-base feels lied to, betrayed and has a meltdown because the handful of cropped 1/2 and 3/4 pictures they have previously seen,voted, commented, Favorited turns out to be be a dude. The flood-gates of 1 votes (now days removal of +1) mass reports daily, nasty unending comments which must be policed every five minutes. Its simply not worth the hassle.
Regardless of the verbiage used of dude which many take exception to, you're pinning the problem on the wrong people. The problem you have is that some people have meltdowns if trans women are posted; it causes a moderation headache, I get that.
The issue you're not considering though is that's their own problem. As you illustrated with your A-F examples, people have different tastes. If you can't handle that and feel the need to incessantly complain, that's on you. Instead of simply catering to those people, which is what has been done on this site, the mod team can take action against those users beyond just deleting comments with no further recourse.
Trans women are women. I'm not picking fights but I'm stating facts. Being trans is not a political statement or lifestyle, it's simply my reality. Having a dick and spending the first 17 years of my life being seen as a dude does not mean that I'm any less of a woman. I have not been perceived as a cis male for over 5 years now and I'll never be seen that way again. I am almost always perceived as a cis woman and I know this because I have experienced the exact harassment cis women face in society (they have told me this). At the end of the day, being visibly queer gives me power. If anyone ITT views me or other trans women as men, it's your problem.
You're free to say such a thing to my face, even. Like other girls on this site I'm stronger than most men. Physical prowess has its place. I don't get huge just for fun (though I do it for that too). I like looking beautiful and powerful. I'd wager my strength is palpable in my words.
Already put my final word on this subject: mods can do whatever they want. But I take a stand when I see transphobia. There's a fuckton of it in the comments. I'm responding to nobody in particular, but if being called a transphobe angers you it's probably because it's true. So I ask you: WHY does it make you angry? If it's because you want to defend the right to see trans women as a "separate" gender from cis women, then... Well, sorry, but you're an asshole! Trans people just want to live and it's people like you that make it so much harder for us to live.
Thought about it for a little and the message above is directed specifically to men who will enjoy a muscular girl and then have negative reactions when finding out that said model or muscular girl that they like is trans. That one goes out just to YOU from my buff ass trans heart. Fuck yourself <3
Trans women are women. I'm not picking fights but I'm stating facts. Being trans is not a political statement or lifestyle, it's simply my reality. Having a dick and spending the first 17 years of my life being seen as a dude does not mean that I'm any less of a woman. I have not been perceived as a cis male for over 5 years now and I'll never be seen that way again. I am almost always perceived as a cis woman and I know this because I have experienced the exact harassment cis women face in society (they have told me this). At the end of the day, being visibly queer gives me power. If anyone ITT views me or other trans women as men, it's your problem.
You're free to say such a thing to my face, even. Like other girls on this site I'm stronger than most men. Physical prowess has its place. I don't get huge just for fun (though I do it for that too). I like looking beautiful and powerful. I'd wager my strength is palpable in my words.
Already put my final word on this subject: mods can do whatever they want. But I take a stand when I see transphobia. There's a fuckton of it in the comments. I'm responding to nobody in particular, but if being called a transphobe angers you it's probably because it's true. So I ask you: WHY does it make you angry? If it's because you want to defend the right to see trans women as a "separate" gender from cis women, then... Well, sorry, but you're an asshole! Trans people just want to live and it's people like you that make it so much harder for us to live.
Like I said in my other post this is basically a fetish site and like most porn sites should have a filter or disclaimer when it comes to gay/trans stuff.
The people who you call tranphobes and assholes are pretty much the people who are telling you straight up that they're not into it but the vast majority of people who complained in private probably aren't here. Why? Because there are a bunch of people who will tell you what you'd like to hear to your face but behind closed doors they think the exact same thing, and there are even more people who will stay silent on the whole issue but also think the same thing. You can't be entitled enough to tell people to change their whole sexualities just to make your life easier.
At this point I’d say let’s try to celebrate what has been done, rather than complain about what could still be done. Hopefully over time we can find alternative approaches, but right now we have a forum with barely three threads.
I have created a new thread for dressed muscular trans women, but let’s use that forum. Maybe we can create separate threads for each model, but whatever the approach, the forum is there.
BTW comments in this thread show why mods have had a hard time knowing how to approach the subject. Even if personally mods might be accepting of trans women, we need to manage the site in a way that doesn’t result in it dissolving into a shit show. Finding the right balance between being lenient and overly strict is hard.
The people who you call tranphobes and assholes are pretty much the people who are telling you straight up that they're not into it but the vast majority of people who complained in private probably aren't here. Why? Because there are a bunch of people who will tell you what you'd like to hear to your face but behind closed doors they think the exact same thing, and there are even more people who will stay silent on the whole issue but also think the same thing. You can't be entitled enough to tell people to change their whole sexualities just to make your life easier.
Let me ask you a question because I want to understand you. Not upset, just want to understand. I'm not hooking up with anyone, I'm just putting up pictures on a website. Here's my hypothetical: my pictures no longer have any genitalia visible (begrudgingly and sadly I do understand the knee-jerk reaction of revulsion at a girl with a dick - it can be foreign and strange to somebody who isn't used to it). In these pictures I look feminine and "passable". Indistinguishable from other girls on the site. No dick, nothing. Just my muscular female body.
Then they find out I'm trans. Suddenly: why is a man's attraction to me suddenly less than heterosexual? Is it the knowledge that I have a dick? I believe that's a harmful idea to have. It paints me as an "other". This is why a lot of trans people (especially trans people of color) are killed. I get not wanting to see the dick, but merely knowing that I have one shouldn't lessen a straight man's attraction to me. I understand why it DOES, but that's why we want to actively undo that harmful notion. It can be done and it should be done, because I'm just as much a person as you are and I'm not trying to deceive anyone. Just want to show off my hot jacked female body, that's all lol
At this point I’d say let’s try to celebrate what has been done, rather than complain about what could still be done. Hopefully over time we can find alternative approaches, but right now we have a forum with barely three threads.
I have created a new thread for dressed muscular trans women, but let’s use that forum. Maybe we can create separate threads for each model, but whatever the approach, the forum is there.
appreciate the work u guys are doing. sorry it's such a mess, sincerely. don't want to add fuel to the fire. just want to engage ignorance with some bonafide perspective and clarity as someone who been through a lot of awful shit that stemmed from said ignorance
Let me ask you a question because I want to understand you. Not upset, just want to understand. I'm not hooking up with anyone, I'm just putting up pictures on a website. Here's my hypothetical: my pictures no longer have any genitalia visible (begrudgingly and sadly I do understand the knee-jerk reaction of revulsion at a girl with a dick - it can be foreign and strange to somebody who isn't used to it). In these pictures I look feminine and "passable". Indistinguishable from other girls on the site. No dick, nothing. Just my muscular female body.
Then they find out I'm trans. Suddenly: why is a man's attraction to me suddenly less than heterosexual? Is it the knowledge that I have a dick? I believe that's a harmful idea to have. It paints me as an "other". This is why a lot of trans people (especially trans people of color) are killed. I get not wanting to see the dick, but merely knowing that I have one shouldn't lessen a straight man's attraction to me. I understand why it DOES, but that's why we want to actively undo that harmful notion. It can be done and it should be done, because I'm just as much a person as you are and I'm not trying to deceive anyone. Just want to show off my hot jacked female body, that's all lol
I'm not saying the pics should be banned, just that there should be a tag or disclaimer so that the people who don't want to look at it can just move on without having to complain.
But as far as people attractions go it's really up to them. Let me ask you this, at what point for you do you think it's okay for straight men to be attracted to a trans woman? You say you posted pics that are indistinguishable from other women but what about the people who aren't? I'm not sure what the terms are but I think its non binary where someone can just look like a straight up man but still identify as a trans woman. This could be someone like Arnold or Rich Pianna making no changes what so ever to their appearance but identifying as a woman. Would you say straight men should still be attracted to them too or should it only apply for the one's who are passable?
They were not born women
What does it matter? Presentation and gender and personality matter more than sex organs anyway
Thanks. I'm glad you've distinguished and separated those born as men (or whatever the correct term is). What a terrible disservice it is to the actual women of the sport (just as is occurring in other sports) to lessen their achievements.
I've no desire to cause harm to those who wish to pursue feminine characteristics, but I am also made sad that we live in a society that's being reprogrammed to self-destruct.
Genitalia is not what distinguishes a man from a woman. It's between the ears as well. If you don't understand that statement, I can only assume you've had limited life experiences.
... I am almost always perceived as a cis woman and I know this because I have experienced the exact harassment cis women face in society (they have told me this). At the end of the day, being visibly queer gives me power. If anyone ITT views me or other trans women as men, it's your problem.
Aaaand that's the only reason they know you're a trans woman. Unless a person self identifies, then how does anyone know from a few pictures on this site?
I think some folks might be working through the reality that they might be presented with "trans" images and not realize it.
Life is not black and white everybody.
Sometimes the way we want the world to fit into neat little categories just won't work. So, do we adjust our thinking, or accuse the world of having a problem?
This is a suckass conversation, gotta admit. People want to bog everything down in hate and cherrypicked science because they fear both their own desires and other people being happy because they're not happy themselves.
Trans people have always been here and we're not going anywhere, so you might as well enjoy the ride :)
My initial thoughts when I saw this post was that this is gross, transphobic segregation. After reading through this forum my thoughts haven't changed.
The trans women here in this forum has already made much more nuanced and well articulated posts than I ever could on this issue and I hope their voices are heard and taken seriously. That said, I'd like to address some of the issues I have with this choice and some of the statements made by the mods.
I've seen the argument that it's just a category that you can choose come up here a few times. You can't say that it's just a category that you can pick like on other sites... if it's the only category. That you only can “choose” in an arbitrary section of the site. Tucked away and hidden from the “main site” so the poor transphobes don't get upset and mash the report button and cry in the comments.
And the trans women who upload here will only get views, comments and favorites from people who specifically seeks them out and knows of their little hidden designated area of which they are allowed to exist. Which means that getting on the “High score today” section for example and getting recognition for their hard work on a larger scale is significantly tougher than for any other user on the site. And people who couldn't give a shit if they're trans or not also won't see these women, which is what the transphobes want. Not only to remove trans women from their view but from other peoples view as well so that the general public doesn't get exposed and maybe starts opening up their minds to different perspectives and bigotry might start to change to acceptance on a larger scale. This choice is playing into transphobes hands and this site is now contributing to the bigotry towards trans women by not including them on the “main site”.
tamarok
At this point I’d say let’s try to celebrate what has been done, rather than complain about what could still be done. Hopefully over time we can find alternative approaches, but right now we have a forum with barely three threads.
I'm sorry but, what? You make it sound like this is a progressive change that is the first step of many. When the fact is you just segregated trans women. This is not something to celebrate and I'm disappointed that this is the mindset of the mods. And the complaints I see are mostly directed to this choice that you made, not future ones you haven't.
Chainer
My experience over the past few years has convinced me that trans posts fall into this category. The same would apply if we allowed this sort of thing on the main site, which is why there continues to be a separate Fantasy section for it.
Some people brought up Paige Dumars, and actually the same thing applies to her images. We've had discussions about it in mod chat and haven't come up with a good solution, so we do what we have done with trans posts up until now; delete the more extreme posts that get out of hand. Unlike trans women, Paige doesn't fit into a cleanly identifiable category for which we can have a separate forum section.
I don't see why you're comparing fictional 3D-models to real trans women to justify your choices that they should belong in a different section. Sure, they may have a similar effects on reports and comments but how is all of this not anti trans, in that trans women belong in a section closer to fictional 3D characters than among cis women? Why even bring up fictional 3D-characters in a discussion about a group of people who constantly have to fight to be seen as just as important and real as everybody else? And cis women posters get the same amount of reports but doesn't get tucked away? But if they identify as trans, then it's easy to just categorize and segregate. Trans people can't even get a break in sites like this one where the gender identity line already is blurry?
I understand the moderation issues. It's eminently practical, but there's something about doing the right thing.
It always amused me when a pic would get posted, guys would geek about the hotness of the model, and then someone would say, "By the way, she's trans." And then the guys who were praising the pic a moment earlier are suddenly grossed out and insist on removal.
I go for the more feminine models (and I've had uploads removed for "lack of muscle"), so this filter probably benefits me on the whole, but still, it's diminishing people's social status. The problem isn't the model; the problem is the people throwing hissy fits.