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Update regarding images of trans women

Mar 18, 2021 - permalink

whatever makes you feel better, you cant prove that at all so its just conjecture

Except I’m not the one who brought it up, that was your conjecture to begin with.

Lol to make me feel better? I’m not the one that hits the report button out of sexual insecurity.

Mar 18, 2021 - permalink

Others think differently. What is the issue of simply ignoring trans posts instead of reporting them and trying to get them taken down? If someone shares your point of view, they can simply not click on those pictures. If someone has the opposite point of view, these pictures are taken down entirely. There's a disconnect there.

Someone like Paige DuMars is bordering very close to masculinity in numerous aspects. If there was a female to male trans bodybuilder like this, do you think this is appropriate for the site?

https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/190605...

I've defended the inclusion of Paige Dumars in the past. And, regarding the picture of the "female to male", personally, I'll admit I'm quite the outlier in that regard since I wouldn't have a problem. But I do see your point, most guys wouldn't want to see those either. Either way, If most of the user base don't want to see those pictures, why do we have to force them to include them? Aren't you glad with your separate forum? You get what you want concentrated in a part of the site. Why do you want other people to see them so badly?

Mar 18, 2021 - permalink

I've defended the inclusion of Paige Dumars in the past. And, regarding the picture of the "female to male", personally, I'll admit I'm quite the outlier in that regard since I wouldn't have a problem. But I do see your point, most guys wouldn't want to see those either. Either way, If most of the user base don't want to see those pictures, why do we have to force them to include them? Aren't you glad with your separate forum? You get what you want concentrated in a part of the site. Why do you want other people to see them so badly?

It goes back to what other were saying about “othering” and there being no difference for a trans/cis woman for people just looking at pictures online. There are a lot of great pictures that are segregated to a corner of the site this way.

Mar 18, 2021 - permalink

Lol to make me feel better? I’m not the one that hits the report button out of sexual insecurity.

neither do I, it doesn't bother me. I do find it funny how you immediately attack someone's sexuality when you don't have anything to say. does that make you feel any better? Definitely better to just leave you be.

Mar 18, 2021 - permalink

Personally, I see "transwomen" as men. There's no way I will ever see them as women. I don't consider make up, wigs, "feminity" or any socially constructed behaviors as defining womanhood. I assume, the reason most men don't want to see them on the site is exactly because of this, they don't consider them women. The nerve right? All in all, does everything containing women have to include trans identifying men? That seems to be quite sexist, men getting livid because some people don't quite see them the way they see themselves. hmmmm......

Facts, to each their own but this site is "girlswithmuscle", to appreciate real women who worked their tails off to be fit and muscular. People who want to see "transwomen" should be happy with a subsection. That is a perfect compromise for all. If we took an anonymous poll, the people wanting "trans" on this site would be undeniably the minority percentage. For the user saying there is one "trans" getting many favorites, it is a combination of people either not knowing they are trans before liking it and all of the small number of people searching/finding a rare "trans" woman on this site and liking it.

Mar 18, 2021 - permalink

For the user saying there is one "trans" getting many favorites, it is a combination of people either not knowing they are trans before liking it and all of the small number of people searching/finding a rare "trans" woman on this site and liking it.

What does it matter why they’re liking it? This site is admiring pictures online, no one is dating these women.

Mar 18, 2021 - permalink

It doesn't. That was an explanation as to why that outlier has popularity. Like I said, to each their own. I agreed that the subsection is a good compromise. It's a give and take deal. I am not saying clean house and delete everything. Not trying to argue nor bash anyone, so we can agree to disagree on whatever it may be. Cheers

Mar 19, 2021 - permalink

i was likely thought about when this post was made because I'm a trans woman and have posted a few pics here. I'm going to give my honest thoughts on this: I think it's logically ridiculous let alone discriminatory. my muscles, face, and body are as feminine if not more feminine than many of the the women posted here. that doesn't make me more valid or more female, i'm just stating what I know is true because I'm a frequent user of the site and I've seen the kinds of women posted here. there are women here who straight-up just look like men (Paige was mentioned for example) and they're allowed to be posted... because they have a vagina? i don't understand, it makes no sense.

in one of my pics you could see a bit of a bulge but if that's the issue i can just censor that area? my validity should not depend on my passing but if passing is the issue then that's not really an issue for me. i could upload some with my face more clearly visible but i've been enjoying the gradual fade from anonymity to visibility. but once again, this is not something i should need to do.

looking forward to seeing the response to this. i can not imagine justifying a position like this on any basis besides straight up segregating me just for being trans lol

Chainer
Mar 19, 2021 - permalink

One thing that no one has really touched on in this discussion is that a lot of users really don't want to see trans posts. Both qualifiers are important. This is what sets this apart from posts of cis women who may not be to everyone's liking.

My mental model of the situation is something like this:

percentage of userbase times magnitude of negative reaction

This isn't a precise equation or anything, of course, but a general relationship. If this value is sufficiently high for a particular type of picture, it becomes difficult to maintain those pictures on the main site, and you start to get things like a flood of inflammatory comments and image reports.

My experience over the past few years has convinced me that trans posts fall into this category. The same would apply if we allowed this sort of thing on the main site, which is why there continues to be a separate Fantasy section for it.

Some people brought up Paige Dumars, and actually the same thing applies to her images. We've had discussions about it in mod chat and haven't come up with a good solution, so we do what we have done with trans posts up until now; delete the more extreme posts that get out of hand. Unlike trans women, Paige doesn't fit into a cleanly identifiable category for which we can have a separate forum section.

Mar 19, 2021 - edited Mar 19, 2021 - permalink

I understand this. But it sounds to me like you're looking at the effect and not the cause. What is causing the users to dislike trans posts? Is it because the posters don't pass? Is it the genitals? Well, I can knock both of those out right now with my suggestions (censoring my genitals, using my more feminine pics). So... With those two things, what else could be the reason people don't like trans posts?

Straight-up transphobia, that's what I think. So it seems to me instead of taking a stand against transphobia, you're bending to the transphobes and giving them power by giving in to their whims. In my eye this is the wrong thing to do, not the right thing. At the end of the day it's your site - but take it from a trans woman who's been around the block. I've already challenged a lot of norms and I aim to challenge quite a lot more. Challenging the norm is a good thing. I think people should want to see unconventional perspectives and bodies represented. And with female muscle - a kink that's already so genderfucky (women who take a lot of steroids will look very masc), well... I don't know if I need to go on.

I can argue my point further by the mod team still giving Paige a pass and debating as my posts got removed. She looks like a man. I look like a woman. We are both female. This is just true. Even aside from Paige, there are hundreds of women posted on the site who look more like men than I do. So... Yeah, I'm confident this is a transphobia issue.

Mar 19, 2021 - permalink

I understand this. But it sounds to me like you're looking at the effect and not the cause. What is causing the users to dislike trans posts? Is it because the posters don't pass? Is it the genitals? Well, I can knock both of those out right now with my suggestions (censoring my genitals, using my more feminine pics). So... With those two things, what else could be the reason people don't like trans posts?

Straight-up transphobia, that's what I think. So it seems to me instead of taking a stand against transphobia, you're bending to the transphobes and giving them power by giving in to their whims. In my eye this is the wrong thing to do, not the right thing. At the end of the day it's your site - but take it from a trans woman who's been around the block. I've already challenged a lot of norms and I aim to challenge quite a lot more. Challenging the norm is a good thing. I think people should want to see unconventional perspectives and bodies represented. And with female muscle - a kink that's already so genderfucky (women who take a lot of steroids will look very masc), well... I don't know if I need to go on.

I can argue my point further by the mod team still giving Paige a pass and debating as my posts got removed. She looks like a man. I look like a woman. We are both female. This is just true. Even aside from Paige, there are hundreds of women posted on the site who look more like men than I do. So... Yeah, I'm confident this is a transphobia issue.

Perfectly said 🙌

[deleted]
Mar 19, 2021 - permalink

Purely expressive my own opinion here. A lot of people like to refer to this as a “community” and as a community we should be accepting of others, no matter the label or others personal thoughts. Digital segregation seems like a silly, and destructive concept on this site.

Personally I find this very ironic being that half the men in the chat turn to adult discussions about MBBs or their own genitalia very quickly.

Mar 19, 2021 - permalink

I appreciate this decision. I don't care about labels of "phobias". There are plenty of other communities for trans and the like, and they can go there since it specifically caters to that sort of thing.

For instance, Star trek and star wars fans don't need to be in the same category just because they both have aliens and space ships.

[deleted]
Mar 19, 2021 - permalink

I just think this is getting out of hand. If you don’t like TS women then don’t look at them on the site. No one is forcing you to stare at them, plenty of free will still at play.

I guess I would have expected more tolerance and acceptance from this “community”.

fp909
Mar 19, 2021 - permalink

i don't chime in much on this stuff but i appreciate the separation. i also don't understand the need to "get over it".

some people don't want to see it: this is fine some people want to see it: that's also fine

ultimately, if the decision is to move the images to another part of the forum, it's the admin decision. I just don't understand that if we don't want to see it why it's automatically labeled transphobic. am i fatphobic for not wanting to see the dozens of images on here of women that don't have any muscle definition at all and are just large?

please don't misconstrue my tone--i don't care what people do. i want the best for them and in their lives. but lobbing labels at each other in an attempt to guilt other parties into coming to your point of view won't get us anywhere.

Mar 19, 2021 - permalink

Respectfully, there is also plenty of free will still at play to go to places that cater to trans people specifically. Not everyone is into that, nor want to be around it. Doesn't mean they are phobic or intolerant. Simple as that.

Mar 19, 2021 - permalink

[..] Not everyone is into that, nor want to be around it. Doesn't mean they are phobic or intolerant. Simple as that.

your opinion literally demonstrates what intolerance is in the same breadth of space that you used in your denial of it. if the subject of transgender content grates you enough that you argue that it shouldn't even be a part of what the site caters for specifically because you don't want to see it, then that's exactly what it means to be intolerant.

you don't have to like trans content before you can accept that there are others who do, and thus it shouldn't be an issue to share the same space if it promotes a more diverse range of content as long as you're willing to focus on what appeals to your preferences, as i'm fairly sure is the case for most of us here.

i for example am neither a Paige DuMars nor a Natalia Trukhina fan, yet i wholeheartedly support their inclusion on this site because i understand that the concept of a GWM is much broader than my personal idealisation of it, and it's for that reason why each registered account is provided with its own favourites gallery.

Mar 19, 2021 - permalink

your opinion literally demonstrates what intolerance is in the same breadth of space that you used in your denial of it. if the subject of transgender content grates you enough that you argue that it shouldn't even be a part of what the site caters for specifically because you don't want to see it, then that's exactly what it means to be intolerant.

ok 👍

[deleted]
Mar 19, 2021 - permalink

Not trying to belittle the point but this is a slippery slope. What’s next moving the large bodybuilders to the forum only because the “look manly” and people “don’t want to see that”. If you don’t want to see it then don’t look at it. The beauty of this site is you can choose to look for/at what you want. For those arguing support for this because you simply don’t want to see it-no one is putting this content squarely in front of you, just like everyone’s other preferences that content can simply be avoided or sought after if you choose. Respect and appreciation for all the fit women and athletes on here is the goal. To me, trans women are included in that sphere-and frankly who are any of us to deny that population the same opportunity.

[deleted]
Mar 19, 2021 - permalink

Speaking as a transwoman, all I'll say is I'm glad to finally have a foot in the door here :) Posting more trans muscle will help people appreciate all kinds of muscular female bodies, and maybe cause their tastes to adapt and grow.

Mar 19, 2021 - edited Mar 19, 2021 - permalink

For instance, Star trek and star wars fans don't need to be in the same category just because they both have aliens and space ships.

JFC, what an incredibly dumb comparison. To compare the plights and hardships of trans men and women, which include but are not limited to, stigma, harassment, discrimination and violence (54% of trans people have experienced intimate partner violence and 49% have experience sexual assault) to a science fiction media franchise is dumb at best and tone-deaf at worst. Even if you are against trans women being on the site, to use the justification of “well, Star Wars and Star Trek fans don’t need to be in the same category” shows an incredible display of ignorance.

As a fan of both franchises, may the Galactic Empire and Borg Collective have mercy on your soul.

Mar 19, 2021 - permalink

I think it was pretty much established in that other thread from a few days ago that this is a fetish site so the decision is understandable. Almost every porn site would require you to enable the "gay" option to view their trans videos or at the very least have a tag or disclaimer before you actually watch the video. There should definitely be something in place to separate them so the people who don't want to see it can avoid those posts.

Mar 19, 2021 - edited Mar 19, 2021 - permalink

Not trying to belittle the point but this is a slippery slope. What’s next moving the large bodybuilders to the forum only because the “look manly” and people “don’t want to see that”. If you don’t want to see it then don’t look at it. The beauty of this site is you can choose to look for/at what you want.

I'm inclined to agree with trapsandcaps' point above.

This sure is a complex issue, especially considering that advanced FBBs are using a extreme forms of hormonal manipulation to change their bodies well beyond how they were born.

Also of concern, how can we know who is "trans" for sure? Sure, some people self identify, but if they don't, we run the risk of baseless accusations and requests for image takedowns based on... what?

I understand Chainer's original point to an extent, but I am concerned this site is getting dragged into an emotionally motivated cultural issue. What percentage of the pictures here would be "trans" anyhow? What about the current system is not working? if some image is completely out of bounds, there is a “report” button.

If I were Chainer, I would be concerned about the real slippery slope, which is the push for "over-curation." Social media feeds only expose people to what they want to see in order to keep them engaged in a little bubble. I suspect many complainers here might not have the emotional skills to negotiate online communities where they might see content that they don’t 100% agree with.

By creating a separate space, you will never keep the snowflakes happy, and you might be putting more focus on this issue and actually magnifying it more than actually necessary...

tamarok
Mar 19, 2021 - permalink

The main issue here is there is no good solution. No matter what Chainer does, in this context, will upset a large number of people. It isn't a subject has an easy answer or solution. It is a case of we are damned if we do and damned if we don't.

Up until now, trans-women were not generally permitted on the site, to avoid upsetting people. Having a trans-women category is actually providing more than the site has previously allowed for, so in fact the site is providing a venue that didn't really exist before. You could argue, as asianfitnessfan does, that this is a slippery slope that Chainer has engaged on, but the ground was slick even when it was flat, so it is going to be hard to deal with, even by doing nothing.

GWM is evolving and so is society, so maybe in a few years a different approach will be given? For now, I'd simply ask people to be happy that GWM is trying to work out a compromise, even if it hasn't necessarily found an ideal solution.

PS This is my personal perspective.

Mar 19, 2021 - permalink

I agree with this it keeps it separate but still viewable for the people that want to see trans women

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