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Wow, she was the breadwinner in that relationship. So why do female competitors’ prize money so small in comparison to the men.
Because male bodybuilding has a bigger audience than female bodybuilding.
I mean, it sucks because the women train just as hard as the men, but that reality is the economics of the sport demonstrate that it has a larger demographic towards the men.
What happened sent shock waves through the bodybuilding community that it exposed the dark side of the sport.I am surprised that when Arnold was Governor he could have commuted the sentence and she would be free but not have her civil rights. The faster she got out the faster she could rebuild her life and start over again.
I am surprised that when Arnold was Governor he could have commuted the sentence and she would be free but not have her civil rights.
You're surprised by the existence of such a legal possibility? Or by the fact that he didn't?
Would you feel differently if she wasn't a bodybuilder? Or would you feel differently if the genders were reversed?
(Added later:)
After reading Killer Sally: Were Steroids Behind The Murder Of Sally McNeal's Husband? (Grunge), Sally McNeil Now: Where is Ex-Bodybuilder Today? Update (TheCinemaholic), Sally McNeil now: the true story of bodybuilder 'Killer Sally' (Cosmopolitan), ‘Killer Sally’: Where Is Sally McNeil Today? (Decider), Where Is Sally McNeil Now? The 'Killer Sally' Subject Is Out Of Prison (Bustle) and The Sally-Ray McNeil Murder (Muscular Development), with Newsweek, Women's Health, The Daily Beast and allthatsinteresting to go, it seems like they were and had always been seriously messed up people, both, with nothing worth emulating in either one of them.
There are also two versions of who was going to leave whom and did Ray die on his way to the hospital or during a surgery two hours after the incident. Also, some stories stress that Ray was unhinged, some that Sally was unhinged and some that her first husband was unhinged. I believe they all were.
I'm with zarkle. Their relationship was a ticking time bomb. They both had their demons, and it was only a matter of time before one of them seriously hurt the other. One of Ray's friends even says as much.
Just watched it last night. I'm a bit conflicted. My thoughts:
1) Her being the breadwinner in their relationship is depressingly common. I won't name names, but I know two FBB's who were in the same position. Often times, people pick up bodybuilding as a way to compensate for other "weaknesses" in their life. So just because someone has huge muscles doesn't mean that they're strong emotionally. Often it's exactly the opposite.
So it's easy for a BF or husband to totally control them. And it's far easier for a buff woman to make money from casual sex work than a man. So I fully believe that she was supporting him financially.
2) I absolutely believe that he was beating her viciously. And he did it to the kids too.
3) I believe that she also had a dark and violent side to her. I don't think that steroids caused it. It's more that people who take steroids at that level are already a little off-kilter to begin with, and the drugs just exacerbate that.
4) I don't feel bad that he died. No one should hit children like he did. I'd be okay with every wife and child beater catching a shotgun slug to the chest.
5) That said, as a gun owner, I can tell you that a slug is a powerful round. A murderous one. Not anything that a reasonable person would use for home defense. Hitting him twice... including once in the face... that does seem to be a bit more than just self defense. The freaking Predator would be incapacitated after a gut shot with that. I do have to believe that the second shot was fired out of hatred and anger.
6) She should have been held guilty to some extent, but 2nd degree murder seems excessive.
5) That said, as a gun owner, I can tell you that a slug is a powerful round. A murderous one. Not anything that a reasonable person would use for home defense. Hitting him twice... including once in the face... that does seem to be a bit more than just self defense. The freaking Predator would be incapacitated after a gut shot with that. I do have to believe that the second shot was fired out of hatred and anger.
That’s something I’ve always wondered, as someone who doesn’t own a gun: are there different ones designed to disarm/wound vs kill? I’ve heard certain guns don’t leave clean wounds, not sure if that’s true.
<< So why do female competitors’ prize money so small in comparison to the men. >>
All women's sports pay less than the mens. All over the US women still make $.81 where men make a buck for just about every kind of work. Women's soccer just won a huge victory for equal pay and benefits for the national team. It's an institutional lag across almost all industries and fields.
McNeil mentioned in the doc' that she got to participate in school sports because of Title IX, so consider that before that women who wanted to do any sports in schools were laughed down the road with comments about home ec and sexual innuendos.
I thought 'Killer Sally' was a well done documentary. It's really sad that the patterns of violence and abuse extended to her kids and it's kind of wonderful that they're working past all that -- apparently -- well, albeit at some real costs. I hope they all thrive.
I wouldn’t call it a huge victory. I’m the case of women’s soccer they initially made the choice of opting for a safer pay option: guaranteed salary and benefits courtesy of US soccer if they were called up to the team which, by the way, likely covered all the pregnancies players had as well as gave them security during the pandemic. They had the option to pick the men’s riskier but potentially more rewarding structure that doesn’t include things like health benefits since it’s performance based. Many of the men could do this because their clubs were paying them much better than US Soccer could. To me the parties pushing for reparations for not picking the more rewarding pay option are in hindsight angry about not picking that option, which really only would have applied to the cabal of king time rostered players that more or less kept younger players from seeing the pitch or getting called up. Anyways, kudos for the men for being willing to part with some of their pot money to add some to the women’s pot. Though I wonder if the women started making much more for their success if they would allow the slider to move in the other direction.
TLDR they had the option to pick the more lucrative but riskier pay structure but opted for the lesser paying but safe salary and benefits option.
https://www.rxmuscle.com/articles/latest-news...
SALLY MCNEIL... THIS IS MY STORY: PART 1
In April 1996, professional bodybuilder Sally McNeil was given a sentence of 19 years-life for the shotgun slaying of her husband (and fellow bodybuilder) Ray McNeil.
It was no secret that Sally and Ray had a volatile relationship and had fought violently on many occasions, mostly triggered by Ray's many affairs with other women. However, on Valentine's Day 1995 the fight between the pair (reportedly about the cost of the chicken Ray was cooking) would be their last.
Sally McNeil was convicted of second-degree murder and sent to prison. Court records from the time state that she was not given the chance to argue that the death was manslaughter and that she was indeed ‘psychologically damaged' from Ray's abuse.
Up until now, little has been heard from Sally (for obvious reasons!). However, for the first time ever, we present to you Sally's full account of events on that fateful night. We also get some insight as to how she's feeling today and what her plans are for when she's finally released...
First of all, for those unfamiliar with your case, tell us when you were arrested and how long your prison sentence was?
"I was arrested early in the morning of 15th February 1995. The police took me in after I called 911. They questioned me, my children and neighbors all through the night. On 19th March 1996 I was found guilty of 2nd degree murder and on 19th April 1996 I was sentenced to 19 years to life.
"In the state of California, lifers do not get half time. Once we have done 85% of our time we go in front of a Parole Board to see if they will grant Parole. I knew a woman named Lori Sue who did 31 years on a 7 to life...a woman named Karen did 24 years on a 15 to life sentence. I have been incarcerated now for 13 years."
In your absence from the scene how do you feel about the way you have been presented on the Internet?
"From the stuff my friends send me, I have not been represented fairly on the Internet. I should never have done that Teagan Clive interview in 1996 after I was convicted of 2nd degree murder. I wanted to tell my side of the story, so I told her what really happened. She put what I said sure, but underneath it she put the DA's version of events and his motive was to win at all costs. My military (Sally is a former marine) health records were mysteriously incomplete. All the injuries I suffered were not mentioned.
"Ray was very insecure and this made him very jealous. He was afraid of losing me to somebody who would have treated me better. He broke my little toe in Okinawa, Japan when he threw me out of the bath tub. He broke my nose when he punched me in the face because I told him the reason my shoulders were not developed (or ‘weak' as he said) was because he wrenched my shoulder so badly. At this time I didn't know he partially tore my rotator cuff. I should not have been lifting weights or bodybuilding as the doctor told me that the injury I had was a career destroyer for a bodybuilder. I was determined not to give up though and was in denial about how bad it really hurt.
"I reported the injury but didn't tell the doctors what really happened so they didn't do an x-ray. I was afraid of getting Ray into trouble. I was afraid of losing Ray. Looking back I realize I was a classic case of Battered Wife Syndrome. I was in denial that Ray was abusive to me. My self esteem was so low. I didn't think I could attract another man like Ray. I felt I was lucky to have him."
Your life with Ray seems to have been very turbulent. Did you ever consider leaving him before events escalated the way they did?
"My life with Ray was very turbulent. I left him about three times and he followed me to my new address. I was preparing to move back east where I was brought up and to the home I grew up in, but I didn't make it. Looking back, I should have left him after the 3rd day of our marriage. He beat me up because the Warrant Officer who was in charge of me told Ray he should not have married me because I was ‘used goods'. Ray got mad because I had dated two other guys before I met him. I was beaten up unmercifully. This beating was unprovoked on my side."
The violence in your relationship has been linked by some to anabolic steroid use, care to comment...
"Yes, anabolic steroid use was the root of Ray's violence towards me. When Ray and I first got married in 1987, I had no idea that he was on steroids. So I did not know that he was suffering from ‘roid rage' when he'd fly off the handle and beat the holy hell out of me. He threw me across the room when he saw me talking to another guy when I was at work. He picked me up like a rag doll the minute we got home and just threw me across the room. He broke my coccyx bone in my back tail bone. This injury still bothers me. My back is always going out on me. It hurts to sit down. When I get up from being seated it takes about 10 steps before I can loosen up and straighten up. It is hard to lift things.
"Over in Okinawa, Japan where we lived off base, Ray beat me over 52 times in that year over there because he was having roid rages. One of those times was because I would not write a list of all the men I had dated...Ray choked me three times, on the third time I had spasms. When I came around I ran out of our apartment in my bra and bike pants. I hid in the bushes, more afraid of Ray than the poisonous snakes that lived there. Ray called to me and apologized to me. He confessed he was on steroids and had been having a ‘roid rage'. He said he had no idea what he did to me. So that was my introduction to steroids. I was so new to the sport at that time that I did not know about steroids.
"Ray's toxicology reports state that he had 5 different steroids in his system. I was not on steroids at the time of the incident. I had used Deca Durabolin for the Nationals in September of 1994, so I tested positive for Deca because it stays in the system up to 18 months. There have been many female athletes in bodybuilding that were disqualified at the North America for testing positive for Deca. I did not use a lot of steroids. I had bills to pay and children to take care of. My priorities were straight. The children came first. I did not want the bad side effects females can get. I never used testosterones because they cause facial hair, male pattern baldness and a voice as deep as Barry White. I have no side effects from over using steroids. I would be a misfit in prison if I had to shave my face or had male pattern balding and a very deep voice."
It has been reported that Ray had several affairs during the course of your marriage. Many women would have left him for that reason alone. Why did you choose to stay?
SallyMcNiel0001"Yes Ray had many affairs. I tried to stick through it, thick or thin, for better or worse. He always came back to me. Once these women realized Ray couldn't leave me they left him. Some woman (name deleted) had an abortion according to Ray because he couldn't leave me. I should have left him because one thing I was afraid of was catching HIV, AIDS, Hep C or any kind of STD.
I could give you a long list of women Ray had affairs with - one of them even had the nerve to testify against me during my trial. Yes I should have left him but my self esteem was so beaten down by him that I thought he was the best I could get."
You have often been portrayed as the ‘bully' and provoker in your marriage. How do you feel about this?
"I was not the bully or provoker in my marriage. If a guy is beating you up because he mistrusts you, wouldn't you be angry when you discover he is fooling around on you?
"I wasn't jealous, I was deathly afraid of catching a disease such as HIV, Hep C or some awful STD as I said before. I didn't deserve that. I did nothing to deserve the beatings Ray handed out. I believe Ray's homosexual boyfriends (names deleted) made me out to be the bully. I would never provoke a 260lbs professional bodybuilder. One time when I hit Ray back after he brutally beat me it made the beating worse. He broke my rib and punctured my lung. My military records have this injury reported. On that final night I felt as though I would not survive that choking or throughout the night. I panicked. Ray weighed 260lbs a hundred pounds more than me.
"Ray's boyfriends lied about me during the trial. I have proof. One of them said he spotted me benching 255lbs...that is not true. In power lifting the most I ever benched was 225lbs. The DA pulled so many pages out of my military health records it is unreal...he even pulled the births of my children.
"Men who cheat are insecure so they accuse us women of cheating because they feel if they are cheating so are you. One of Ray's boyfriends (name deleted) lived with us for almost two years. I asked Ray to please tell him to move out. He was mean to my children. He would lock them out of the house when I was not home. He and Ray must have been in the apartment having sex and didn't want to get walked in on by my children or caught in the gay act.
"Due to the fact that I was the reason Ray's boyfriend had to move out of the apartment (I refused to take care of two grown men!) he lied when he testified against me. He actually saw Ray beat me on many occasions. One time I begged him for help and he didn't lift a finger. It seemed to me that he encouraged Ray's abusive behavior towards me. I did not deserve to be abused and mistreated. Ray's boyfriends all lied on the witness stand...and the DA allowed it."
That’s something I’ve always wondered, as someone who doesn’t own a gun: are there different ones designed to disarm/wound vs kill? I’ve heard certain guns don’t leave clean wounds, not sure if that’s true.
Bullets definitely vary in lethality. Handgun bullets range from small to fairly large. Rifle bullets can be smaller than certain handgun rounds but move much faster. I think that every bullet larger than a .22 is planned to incapacitate or kill its human or animal victim.
But shotgun slugs are a strange choice. They're HUGE. The idea behind them is to kill large game animals at close range, as shotguns fire over much shorter distances than rifles. And hunting with rifles is not allowed near populated areas, because the bullets can fly so far.
Shooting someone with a slug at close range must be devastating. I can't imagine that any human being could take that hit and still be a threat.. he'd be lucky to still be breathing afterwards. As a marine, she would have been aware of this, so I do believe that the choice of that load and - especially - the second shot, was a sign of her intent to absolutely kill him.
But he was a wife and child beater, so I'm okay with this. The law wouldn't be. But if she had a lawyer present from step one, I think she would have fared much better. Repeated abuse and terror will make you lash out. I don't blame her one bit.
As a Marine, do you believe she was conditioned to neutralize a threat?
Of the five Highlander movies, I've heard every single one was worse than the previous ones and the fifth made absolutely no sense. But if they ever decide to film Highlander VI, it should include a marine who flips into robot mode from time to time, as a part of even more convoluted non-plot.
I mean, as a person who knows anything about psychology, I am just overwhelmed by the inanity of that question. It is equally likely that she was taken over by aliens. Or that Ray wasn't a gigantic insecure bisexual meathead but a secretly very important person and Sally was a Manchurian Candidate broken down and programmed to assassinate him in a hypnotic trance. Sally knew that and tried to run away from him, but then it happened anyway.
(Added soon:)
Repeated abuse and terror will make you lash out. I don't blame her one bit.
This is a more likely explanation. Though elsewhere she said that she was simply fearing for her life. In case this is true, she knew she had to do something. Like any ordinary person would do. The reasons why she chose to kill him instead of running away include her children and the fact that she had already tried that and failed. I would say that on timescale of minutes the act was premeditated.
Unless the shotgun was by chance next to her when he started choking her. In this case she did it in panic and it was a matter of seconds and there was no way she could have stopped to think. It is never said anywhere, at least in these interviews and articles I have seen that this would have been the case. This is what made the difference between self-defense and murder in the second degree.
That’s something I’ve always wondered, as someone who doesn’t own a gun: are there different ones designed to disarm/wound vs kill? I’ve heard certain guns don’t leave clean wounds, not sure if that’s true.
Not really. At the end of the day, a .22lr (which is the smallest and “weakest” home defense round you can buy) which hits a target in the head is going to be far more lethal than a more powerful .44 magnum round that hits the target in the ankle or hand. It’s more about shot placement than caliber.
That being said, using a slug to shoot someone is an uncommon and pretty “overkill” round to use for self defense, not to mention not really practical. As others have mentioned, slugs are extremely powerful and leave brutal damage, but if a person was truly using a shotgun for practical self defense, it’s far more feasible to use buckshot instead of a slug (which shoots small pellets instead of one large piece of metal.) I can easily see how prosecutors would consider two shots with slugs (when one to the center mass would have been more than sufficient to stop the threat) as more murder versus self defense.
Edit: to add, as others have said, I feel conflicted about this situation. It sounds mean, but I don’t think the world is losing out on Ray not being with us anymore. It was clear that he was insecure and abusive, but Sally had some pretty negative traits herself, and while the whole “roid rage” thing is a bit of myth in the sense that steroids won’t make a calm, relaxed person aggressive and angry, they do exacerbate any negative traits that a person already has, which unfortunately reflects Sally’s personality. The two together was a giant ticking time bomb that inevitably went off.
Lotta awkward sympathy takes here for someone who was ultimately a murderer and also aggressive/beat people up at times. yikes.
Not at all.
The fact that she’s known to have beaten up a couple of people - she admits those crimes - does not mean that she herself was not a battered spouse who deserved better than to have been beaten throughout her life in her home.
But what I don’t get is the suggestion that a person who had demonstrated a lot of irrationality over the years somehow - at the moment she has just made the biggest decision of her life - that somehow she is of clear mind when she makes the decision to reload and fire again. Like, really?
(...and just why it’s no wonder that asshole fucking prosecutors get away with so much bullshit in most of the country)
The WNBA season is 36 games long, while the NBA regular season is 82 games.
And a certain idiot NBA player-non-grata donated $1.5 million of his own money to offset income lost by WNBA players who sat out the 2020 season.
Sally should have done less than half the time she actually served. I hope her grandson is doing OK.
New series on netflix!
https://www.netflix.com/title/81331076