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If a fake natty is what it takes to get people motivated and in the gym, then so be it, the outcome is going to be a net positive. If Michael Jordan started selling basketball lessons would it be damaging when 99% of his customers never reach his level of success or athleticism? Whether DLB's customer's juice or not, 99% aren't reaching her physique/level of success either. So what's the difference? It's not damaging IMO.
Even if it was, I'm personally not a fan of coddling society. It's on them to figure out what's going on. Women especially should know the biological limits of their bodies, and if they don't then that's on them. But, again I'm still of the opinion that getting in the gym and working hard is positive whether you were misled by what's possible or not. Which btw, what isn't misleading in marketing anymore?? Chick-Fil-A misleads people into thinking they're a healthy fast food restaurant. The oil industry misleads people into thinking they're not bad for the environment. Obviously, the list goes on and on and if the core issue is simply being misled then there are bigger fish to fry than fake natty's, who are generally harmless.
On top of that, I'm also not a fan of cancel culture. If anyone doesn't like what DLB is doing then they're certainly free to not follow her and continue on with their own life. But to make those types of videos is definitely akin to trying to get someone canceled. Just turn the channel if you don't like what you're seeing.
As far as DLB's claim itself, she's not that big and everyone has a different (maybe wrong) definition of what natty is. It's possible she has never used test, but is on fat burners and other drugs. Maybe that's natty to her? Who knows. But, overall if her workout programs are good, and she's motivating people one way or another then there's really nothing cancellable here IMO.
DLB's not that big
Bruh. What?
Questionable standards aside, I'm firmly in the "fake natty is dangerous" camp. Building a brand that promises a superhuman/unattainable-without-chemical-assistance physique on a blatant falsehood ("you can do it, just train hard like me and eat your broccoli, also buy my overpriced diet plan") at best lacks moral scruples, and at worst actively puts people's health at risk.
Eating disorders and body dysmorphia are very real afflictions, and these kinds of influencers sell a dream that few, if any, of their fans could even hope to reach. Misinformation aside, people who are blatantly juiced to the gills freely going around saying they're like that because of "gEnEtIcS" and a couple isometric holds isn't good for the sport in the long-term, and it's terrible for the health of those who get swept up in the craze.
She's 5'5 and 135lbs, that's fairly small even for a woman. Her muscle size isn't crazy either. I know natty women with bigger biceps than hers, so yeah I don't think she's big. Not saying she's natty, but objectively she's not big.
I'm curious, how is following a workout plan and eating well harming anyone's health?
Also, I think adding some actual context here is very important, so here's the description of her program:
"Summer is right around the corner and I want to help YOU start shedding these layers and shedding those extra winter pounds with my 6 Week Shredded Summer 3.0 Challenge. This is not just a weight loss challenge, this is a total body transformation challenge. This is your chance to get in the best shape of your life for Summer, and I will be with you the entire way pushing you in the gym to make progress. The workouts will not be easy. Nothing worthwhile ever came from being easy, so you will need to dig deep these next 6 weeks if you want a chance to WIN! This is your opportunity to make yourself a priority. Test your physical toughness but more importantly your mental toughness. And if you follow through these next 6 weeks, no matter what you will WIN!"
That all sounds pretty reasonable to me. I don't see how that's pushing pipe dreams on anyone. She's pushing people to lose weight and achieve goals that are actually realistic for them. But, I don't follow her so maybe there's something else I'm missing. Is there another program she has that pushes unrealistic expectations?
I’ll never understand why some people on this site act like it’s a personal affront that these athletes aren’t providing every detail about their use of ergogenic aids. Yes, those who use are better off avoiding the subject all together than declaring they’re natural, but why would anybody, man or woman, publicly disclose that they are using ILLEGAL SCHEDULE 3 drugs, and possibly put their freedom and employment in jeopardy? (Believe me, it happens.) The idea that they’re doing harm is absolutely bizarre. Just mind your own business and respect their choices and autonomy.
She couldn’t have been natural when she won Ms Physique Olympia. I know it’s a different division these days, but they weren’t tiny back then. I think she probably just has a different definition of the word. It’s probably like how Carolyn Marquez claims that she natural because she uses SARMs and not the traditional stuff.
However, I don’t believe Dana’s doing any harm to her clients because I really don’t think anyone is naïve enough to believe that they are going to get the same level of muscularity with clean eating and regular training alone.
Fake natties are absolutely damaging to the community at large. There are so many kids getting into fitness with unrealistic standards and then they blame themselves when they can't achieve what the fake natties are claiming is possible without drugs.
If you're a fake natty and you just compete and mind your own business, I don't think you're causing a lot of damage. Someone like Dana, with the social media presence that she has, is a different story. She's selling a lie to people and profiting off of it and that's hella problematic. Shame on her.
I'm curious, how is following a workout plan and eating well harming anyone's health?
This is something I hear often that's worth building off of. The harm comes from how the "workout/diet plan"s sold as a means of developing a physique that is impossible for 99.9% of the population to build without cycling heavy shit. That's disingenuous in and of itself, especially considering most of these "influencers" are doing it for personal financial gain, and with complete disregard for the fact that people who fall for this kind of stuff are doomed to fail from the moment they begin.
Sure, some of them may get somewhat fitter and healthier as a result, but virtually none of them will reach the unrealistic expectations set by influencers. At least, not unless they also start juicing.
To use your earlier example, this would be like Jordan selling basketball lessons while explicitly saying that anybody can be an NBA player if they just try hard enough. The damage comes from the unrealistic standard at the end.
I think the fake natural claims are only damaging in terms of FUD that makes some girls reluctant to start weightlifting, not wanting to become big and bulky.
That said, there has been a paradigm shift in recent years, where some or even many of them get into it exactly because they want to be as big as possible. And in this case the fake claims can even encourage them.
As for who is natural and who isn't, getting "fluffy" in a short period of time is the most obvious telltale sign of PEDs, right after acne spots on the back and upper arm. No, you don't get those from protein shakes, stop gaslighting.
Apart from this it's really hard to tell who is natural and who isn't due to genetics having a big role, and especially if someone just using PEDs in moderation.
There are those who cry PEDs all the time, I think they are a bigger problem than fake naturals.
This is something I hear often that's worth building off of. The harm comes from how the "workout/diet plan"s sold as a means of developing a physique that is impossible for 99.9% of the population to build without cycling heavy shit. That's disingenuous in and of itself, especially considering most of these "influencers" are doing it for personal financial gain, and with complete disregard for the fact that people who fall for this kind of stuff are doomed to fail from the moment they begin.
Sure, some of them may get somewhat fitter and healthier as a result, but virtually none of them will reach the unrealistic expectations set by influencers. At least, not unless they also start juicing.
To use your earlier example, this would be like Jordan selling basketball lessons while explicitly saying that anybody can be an NBA player if they just try hard enough. The damage comes from the unrealistic standard at the end.
That's not what she's doing. I posted the description of her WO program word for word and she's not even remotely selling people on building a pro-level physique. It's clearly catered towards regular people who just want to lose weight and get in respectable shape. Where's the unrealistic standard in that?
The example you used at the end is perfect, so show me where she explicitly says that anybody can build a pro physique with her plan?
I think at the least Tall1 can be chalked up as havng 0 clue. dlb has juiced. End of that convo. You dont know any natty girls with arms her size at her bodyfat level. The ones you know are prolly 25% lol
Secondly.. fake natty stuff is definitely damaging as has been listed an expanded on above.
On stage of course not, but off season yes I do. She's small but she obviously uses PEDs to lean out.
You guys are clearly basing your argument off how her lying makes you feel instead of facts. None of the accusations about how she markets her training are even true. This is just SJW mentality seeping into the world of bodybuilding.
That's Greg's clickbait attention grab style. He calls people out. Dana isn't even that freaky big like Natalia to go fussing over peds.
I saw a video recently someone made about a male fitness influencer comparing his more candid video with his ig pictures. You'd be surprised how much lighting, angles and filters can influence perception. They can make you look tall as the Eiffel tower and jacked like king kong.
I am honestly quite addicted to these channels that call out fake natty claims (Shredded Sports Science, Greg Doucette, Even pewdiepie did a vid). But I would really like to know, Is Eugen Sandow the peak of what is possible for Men? And for women Luisita Leers looked pretty big and surely would have been Natty no?
Personally, I prefer it when people simply don't talk about their natty status at all. The ones who are obviously on gear yet claim they aren't at any possible opportunity are the worst and do lasting damage as entirely unrealistic expectations are created. I don't expect people to post their cycle, but at the same time pretending that one's physique is in any way naturally achievable when it's clearly not is highly disingenuous. This typically happens when the person in question is selling a product, and doing so requires upholding the natty fairytale. This is false advertising of course, which is illegal in most countries, yet weirdly accepted in the fitness industry.
CDCD is spot on.
Nobody is telling the athletes to disclose everything in them but stop with the BS claims that you did it all by eating clean and taking your vitamins. Don't get me started on the whole Caorlyne Marquez "I take Sarms" story. She's probably the worst of them all. It's kinda like when Mark Mcgwire was under all the scrutiny for roids in baseball and he props up a bottle of "Androstndione" in his locker during a press interview. On purpose he misled everybody with the only legal therapeutic closest to hard core roids he was obviously on.
The fact is, this community and society reward these liars by claiming "still, it took hard work" but the girl buying all the shit they are peddling has meager and tiny gains because she thought she was going to be a winner like the conwoman who sold her the dream.
I think a big point that has been missed here is that if someone as big as DLB claims that she’s natty and just lifts heavy and eats right, a girl that does not want to put on huge amounts of muscle looks at her and is turned away from lifting weights because of the expectation that she will look like that if she does lift.
Unfortunately for me and my fetish, my gf does not like the huge muscle look. So when she has seen someone like DLB claiming natty, she thinks that just lifting heavy will make her put on serious muscle and avoids lift heavy.
Even without PEDs, to build any kind of visible muscle most women must undergo intensive training and supplementation -- protein, creatine, other nutrients, and put in a significant time investment. So even within the realm of natty, the only women who have a chance of looking "bulky" are the ones who really want to. Probably the most deleterious side effect of merely training heavy is the girl will make a few modest gains, decide she likes the look, and actively pursue a more muscular appearance. So if the girls who are scared off weights by the likes of DLB are those who want to remain skinnyfat forever, I say let them be scared off.
I think the fake natty could be avoided by avoiding the discussion at all and first hand. It is not that any woman has to proof that she does not take illegal drugs, quite the opposite: the denouncer has to prove that she does (at least it is like that in the jurisdiction I live in).
If I was in their shoes I would not answer and file lawsuits. One after the other, and make it public. The whole discussion (in the public: useless) would end quite soon.
I think the fake natty could be avoided by avoiding the discussion at all and first hand. It is not that any woman has to proof that she does not take illegal drugs, quite the opposite: the denouncer has to prove that she does (at least it is like that in the jurisdiction I live in).
If I was in their shoes I would not answer and file lawsuits. One after the other, and make it public. The whole discussion (in the public: useless) would end quite soon.
Until you get to discovery and have to drug test.....then the truth will come out.
I think the fake natty could be avoided by avoiding the discussion at all and first hand. It is not that any woman has to proof that she does not take illegal drugs, quite the opposite: the denouncer has to prove that she does (at least it is like that in the jurisdiction I live in).
If I was in their shoes I would not answer and file lawsuits. One after the other, and make it public. The whole discussion (in the public: useless) would end quite soon.
That's a terrible legal strategy, you'd lose every time and potentially open yourself up to additional legal consequences of steroid use. Expert witnesses would absolutely destroy the credibility of some meathead woman trying to pretend she's clean.
At the risk of hijacking the thread, allow me to invert the question: would it be better, or worse, if the "fake natty" folks told the truth?
Suppose we could wave a magic wand and all of a sudden a bunch of Instagram fitness influencers, pro bodybuilders etc., just came out and said "Yeah, I use PEDs. Tons of 'em. The only way to look like me is to take PEDs, and lots of them."
Imagine how many people would be spurred by that into taking PEDs.
What's worse is that these influencers and pros have the resources to get their PEDs from reputable sources, and to work with trainers who know how to cycle them to mitigate the worst effects. But your regular "gym bro?" They might end up taking whatever they read about on the internet, sourced from the van of some guy who goes to their local gym.
That could get real bad, real fast.
At the risk of hijacking the thread, allow me to invert the question: would it be better, or worse, if the "fake natty" folks told the truth?
Suppose we could wave a magic wand and all of a sudden a bunch of Instagram fitness influencers, pro bodybuilders etc., just came out and said "Yeah, I use PEDs. Tons of 'em. The only way to look like me is to take PEDs, and lots of them."
Imagine how many people would be spurred by that into taking PEDs.
What's worse is that these influencers and pros have the resources to get their PEDs from reputable sources, and to work with trainers who know how to cycle them to mitigate the worst effects. But your regular "gym bro?" They might end up taking whatever they read about on the internet, sourced from the van of some guy who goes to their local gym.
That could get real bad, real fast.
I think both questions start with the assumption that the public is nothing more than a bunch of followers/sheep. In addition to lacking common sense. Maybe I'm giving society too much credit, but I don't think a bunch of soccer moms would start using test and risking their health if FBBs were more honest about their usage. Either way, the root problem would be the people incapable of using sound judgment and not the FBBs being honest or lying about their usage.
I'm not going to point any fingers myself, however there is a video of IFBB Pro bodybuilder Greg Doucette calling out Dana Linn Bailey for claiming to be a "lifetime natural" (as though she's never taken PED's). It seems extremely unlikely to me that she is, and Greg makes a lot of great points in this video. However, for this thread I'm more focused on the athletes who have an enormous number of followers, and giving their fans false information about how to attain that level of physique (similar to what Dana is accused of in the video).
I'm in no way saying that every natty claim is false, but it does seem like many of them are. So what do you guys think? Should there be more honesty and accountability for making these claims? Is this sort of information (or lack thereof) damaging to the fitness industry? And if so, how can this damage be reversed?
You can speculate on particular athletes, and are welcome to agree or disagree about each one. But please be civil and respectful in this thread. If you have a disagreement, simply calling someone an idiot is unacceptable. Please back up your argument with facts and logic.