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Help me design a new tags system

Chainer
Jan 14, 2021 - permalink

From reading https://www.girlswithmuscle.com/forum/thread... it is clear that there is a demand for more tags. However, I don't think that continuing to add new tags manually upon request is a great solution.

I'm more interested in creating some kind of free-form tagging system. However, it needs to be resistant to the case where a small number of users try to tag pictures with something that only they care about, essentially cluttering the system with tags that are useless for everyone else.

One solution that seems promising (which I think was mentioned in the other thread) would be that a tag only becomes visible to all users after X different users have tagged Y different images with it, insert some reasonable values for X and Y.

One solution I want to avoid is one where site staff need to manually curate tags and occasionally remove the most egregious ones. Not only does this create extra work for us, it also causes conflicts as it makes us the bad guys when we try to remove "your" tag.

Jan 14, 2021 - permalink

One solution that seems promising (which I think was mentioned in the other thread) would be that a tag only becomes visible to all users after X different users have tagged Y different images with it, insert some reasonable values for X and Y.

Seems like a good idea. I have always thought that there are tags that are left over and that others are missing. I've always wanted to put a tag for workout breathing. But what would the transition be like? I imagine that you are not going to start from scratch, deleting the existing tags. Those of muscles like biceps are very useful.

Anyway, maybe it would be good to take ideas from other image sites. For example Pixiv's tag system works very well, but I don't know how it is implemented.

Jan 14, 2021 - permalink

I am the member of a site that let's you add individual tags to posts if they aren't existing yet or add an already existing one. You can then up or down vote the tags and if they get enough votes they prevail. Sorts itself pretty much but requires a little trust in the community I figure

Jan 14, 2021 - edited Jan 14, 2021 - permalink

Let’s assume the current set of tags will remain available as “core” approved tags that anyone can add to photos, since they are pretty standardized and tested throughout the site. As far as custom tagging goes (to add to the previous comment), what if a given user could only add a limited number of tags per day, and positive votes on tags earns a user the ability to add more tags? Similar to the allowable uploads construct. That way, users who are productively adding useful tags would earn the ability to add more, and folks who are adding the “selfish” tags would face a kind of speed limit.

Jan 14, 2021 - permalink

I'm afraid it would create extra work anyway. How would you deal with tags that are basically the same? Like, for example, 'workout breathing' and 'breathing'? If different users use different tags for the same thing (because they can't see what others are using) chances are that both versions don't make it to the Y value. And even if one of those tags does make it, the users that have used the other version may ask to merge their tag with the other one.

Chainer
Jan 14, 2021 - permalink

Yeah, to clarify, the existing tags would be kept and imported into whatever the new system ends up being.

For example Pixiv's tag system works very well

I'm not familiar with that site, how does it work?

You can then up or down vote the tags and if they get enough votes they prevail.

That seems like a fine idea. A decent amount of work to implement but it sets a clear procedure for adding new tags and probably weeds out more of the oddly specific ones. We'd also have to have a new page where people vote on tags that people then have to find / know about.

positive votes on tags

Do you mean voting on tags that already exist? Not sure if this is distinct from the previous idea.

I'm afraid it would create extra work anyway.

Unfortunately you're probably right, no matter what we'll have to have a way of deleting and merging tags. By the way, "workout breathing" seems like one of those oddly specific ones I was talking about earlier.

I'm also not sure how to deal with tags like "feet", which might be popular in the sense that a distinct minority of users wants it, but is also not really the point of the site.

Jan 14, 2021 - permalink

New tags related to body types (tall muscle women, offseason, bbw with muscle etc) would be great. And other sports like martial arts, crossfit etc.

Chainer
Jan 14, 2021 - permalink

This is not a thread for actual new tag ideas, but rather for revamping the existing tag system altogether.

tamarok
Jan 14, 2021 - permalink

One thing I’d want to avoid is a tag system which allows porn like tags or non-English tags to creep in. There are enough porn sites out there that we don’t need to be considered another one.

There are a number of different systems I have seen. I’ll admit a number are from porn sites, since they are generally more of these cataloging videos and images:

  • select from an existing list of tags (like here)
  • allow typing in a tag from a larger selection of tags, but need up voting to become visible (e-hentai.org)
  • free for all, though generally this leads to low quality tagging
Jan 14, 2021 - edited Jan 14, 2021 - permalink

We'd also have to have a new page where people vote on tags that people then have to find / know about.

I don't think it's necessary to create an additional page to vote for the tags. For example, if I propose my tag for "breathing", it could be available for a week (for example) and if other users use it in an x amount of photos, the tag would be permanently available. Otherwise the tag is discarded.

Anyway, I don't think the problem is the tags themselves, but that users don't use them. I've been looking and about 50% of the photos don't have tags, and there are some photos that have 75 or more. So of the 75 users who saw that photo, none of them put tags on it. I think GWM users don't care much about it...

tamarok
Jan 14, 2021 - permalink

Based on tuabuela007's comment, which is true in many of the image I approve, could tagging be part of the initial upload workflow?

Jan 14, 2021 - permalink

... I can also only assume there would be a banned tags list to aid in administration. Also, if users can vote on tags, an admin dashboard with the overall lowest scoring tags would help identify outliers and weed out undesirable tags.

Jan 14, 2021 - permalink
Deleted by Chainer
Chainer
Jan 14, 2021 - permalink

Deleted the above comment because it was a tag suggestion.

I like the idea of allowing uploaders to add tags right after the image has been uploaded, same as what we currently do with names. I'm sure this would increase tag usage.

Another idea I had: What if we had two sets of tags, model tags and image tags. The model tags would be characteristics that describe a person, for example: bodybuilder, teen, mature, black/asian/white/latina/etc. These would be applied not for individual images, but rather for a model as a whole, possibly on the search page for that model (where the model subscribe button lives). Then when you filter for these tags, it would include all of the corresponding models' images in the search result.

The image tags are image specific and would have no change from how they work today. This includes most of the current tags (biceps, sleeve, working out, etc.)

tamarok
Jan 15, 2021 - permalink

Model tags sound interesting, though while not really a tag the notion of model aliases could come in through that. For example to help link a model’s married name to non-married name. I can open that as a separate topic, since this risks being its own rabbit hole.

Jan 15, 2021 - permalink

Another idea I had: What if we had two sets of tags, model tags and image tags. The model tags would be characteristics that describe a person, for example: bodybuilder, teen, mature, black/asian/white/latina/etc. These would be applied not for individual images, but rather for a model as a whole, possibly on the search page for that model (where the model subscribe button lives). Then when you filter for these tags, it would include all of the corresponding models' images in the search result.

I like the idea, but there's a risk in assigning a tag to all pics of one person: as there may be pics of a person from a longer period of time, a person could move from one category to another. From 'physique' to 'bodybuilder' for example. And a 'teen' does not always stay a teen (I am a bit worried about the present use of this tag, by the way). And while 'teen' can be assigned based on objective criteria, when do you call a model 'mature'?

Jan 15, 2021 - permalink

I like the idea of allowing uploaders to add tags right after the image has been uploaded, same as what we currently do with names.

I think this is great. I never understood why GWM didn't have that option.

Furthermore, I also think the model labels are a good idea. They can be used for the nationality of the models, date of birth or height (fixed data). Although I agree with ElsieGuen that tags like Mature, Bodybuilder or Race (like Asian or Black) would be problematic.

Jan 15, 2021 - permalink

What functionality do tags have? What functionality should they have?

As far as I can tell they do 2 things:

Tags are listed below the image in plain text. They could be a click -> category like the model name. This wouldn't add much now but if the number of tags were ever large users might want to click unique tags they haven't seen.

Tags can be applied as advanced search filters. These filters can be combined with each other or with the other search criteria. I've had pretty good results just searching Comment Text for custom tags. If you like feet chances are someone has said "feet" or "foot" in the comments of those pictures. At least with the same likelihood as if someone who would notice such a thing would tag it. (Maybe people like the anonymity of tagging?)

Are there other uses I'm not aware of? People might like just tagging for organizational pleasure.

I'd imagine the Comment Search logs would give numerical insight to what tags are most wanted.

Jan 15, 2021 - permalink

Also, tags likely assist with SEO of this site. Not a bad thing. The tagging and organizing makes the site a desirable destination as well.

Chainer
Jan 16, 2021 - permalink

there may be pics of a person from a longer period of time, a person could move from one category to another.

The model tags could be swapped out the by users the same way normal tags can be. Yes, "mature" is a bit arbitrary but there have been requests for that, including one of the deleted comments above.

Here's what I have gotten out of this thread so far:

  • Enabling uploaders to set tags at upload time is a definite yes with pretty much no drawback
  • Model-level tags are a maybe
  • The more freedom we give users to set custom tags without oversight, the more curation (deletion/merging) of tags the staff needs to do. It is unclear what the best system would be for allowing users to do this; there have been several competing ideas suggested.
tamarok
Jan 16, 2021 - edited Jan 16, 2021 - permalink

Anything that requires extra curation risks getting missed, due to the time availability of volunteer moderators. For this reason pre-approved tags work better than post-moderated ones.

Maybe having a page where new tags can be proposed and voted on, with the understanding the final acceptance comes down to site staff? It should be treated as indication of popularity, rather than what will be accepted. For example, ‘boobs’ would likely get a lot of positive votes, but would most probably be rejected by site staff.

M76
Jan 16, 2021 - permalink

I suggest a tag voting system. Someone suggests a tag, then it needs upvoting from at least X users to appear as usable on images.

Jan 16, 2021 - permalink

Using the "boobs" example, a banned tags list would go a long way. Also, if users can vote on tags, an admin dashboard showing with the overall lowest scoring tags would help identify outliers and weed out undesirable tags.

Jan 18, 2021 - permalink

Limiting the number of tags is good, 5 i think is roughly appropriate as it is currently. I believe the easiest way to slowly increase the number of high quality tags would be to allow an additional 1 or 2 "custom" tags, which once popular enough, or as approved by mods can be added as standard.

Jan 20, 2021 - permalink

I'm not seeing a real substantive reason to change the current system. It seems to work fine. As for tagging uploads, I add in the name, when I get the prompt, and then upload. I go immediately to the picture and add the tags I want it to have. I don't see any reason why this couldn't be done, although a really prolific uploader like Tempp may find it to be too much work.

Instead of tagging, I'd like to see more emphasis placed on providing at least a first name, as Tempp does. Some uploaders just can't be bothered to give a name, even when they know who the model(s) is.

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