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I am very annoyed with people who say "there are dudes here to say that women can't built muscle natty!" NO ONE IS SAYING THAT. Women can and do build muscle naturally. What we're saying is that the level of muscularity we see on this site and among popular influencers isn't possible without assistance. Women can build muscle, but chances are if we upload their pics, they're either gonna be rejected for "lacking muscle," or they'll have almost no visibility due to low votes.
No one said that? Really. Do I have to quote Boitoi again, who actually believes that Jessica Biel is the best a natty woman can hope to look like and that "if a woman has any amount of noticeable muscle, then she's on gear" ?
I noticed how lots of people here either believe fake natties or straight up jump to the "women can't build muscles/strength" argument, and both are equally terrible.
That is exactly what I'm saying. Some people actually think that they can tell with certainty who is on gear and who isn't. Which, outside of the obvious cases, is total BS. Yes that's easy when talking about somebody like Emma, yes biceps and delts like these are typical but Boitoi is moving the goal posts when he posts a picture like this one to reply to my comment about Lean Beef Patty who is half the size of Emma and doesn't exhibit any of the obvious signs of PEDs usage. His take is pure sophistry, yes the girl on the left is most likely natural, and then what? Is she the epitome of natural bodybuilding? Hell, is she even a bodybuilder? This is an absurd argument.
What are their proof that LBF is on gear? Her size? That's hardly conclusive. Of course like bentley said "naturally acheivable" doesn't automatically mean that a specific person is natty. Some will need to take PEDs to acheive this and some others won't. But again on what is based their belief that she is on gear? Nothing solid just a gut feeling. She has some muscle and she's an influencer, apparently that's proof enough for them. I simply say that I don't have enough evidence to tell that she's on gear.
I guarantee you a good chunk of dudes here would insist she is “natty” in her after pic is she never said she was on gear
Personally I'd have put her in the suspicious category. Unlike "a good chunk of dudes" here I don't have the arrogance and don't delude myself into thinking that I can tell for sure who is and who isn't on gear just based on a few pics.
I guarantee you a good chunk of dudes here would insist she is “natty” in her after pic is she never said she was on gear
A few months ago someone posted a video of Melinda Lindmark on reddit, and I had a few guys there tell me that she was definitely natural, and that I've never lifted in my life and don't know what I'm talking about cause I thought otherwise 😂
That is exactly what I'm saying. Some people actually think that they can tell with certainty who is on gear and who isn't.
Like I said, most people here don't know much about lifting or think women can't build muscles at all, an untrained 150lbs dude in another thread said he's stronger than 80% of women on this site, which is absolutely delusional, then you get people who think Ida Bergforth or Melinda Lindmark are natural (lmao) .
Reality is lots of people are on PEDs, lots of people lie about it, some "sus" women are natty and others who look mediocre are on stuff, and the limits for what is achieavable naturally mostly depend on genetics and consistency (training/diet, etc.) .
Women like Luisita Leers, famous in the 1920-30s (so no steroids available) can be compared to some women on this site, the natty baseline are physiques from the bronze era, add something to that (modern knowledge, diets, bigger genetic pool, etc...) and that's basically as close as you can get to what is naturally achieavable.
Then it basically becomes a choice, either get bigger but with higher bodyfat, or smaller but leaner (like LBP).
LBP is a former gymnast, she's been training for years, her total is 700lbs or something, and she's great at abusing lighting/angles/pump when taking pictures to look bigger, is she natty? who knows, are her lifts and physique possible without stuff? Sure, some women I train with are bigger than her, and they're not on stuff.
A few months ago someone posted a video of Melinda Lindmark on reddit, and I had a few guys there tell me that she was definitely natural, and that I've never lifted in my life and don't know what I'm talking about cause I thought otherwise 😂
Reddit it the worst place by far as social communities go, even worse than TikTok... it's hive mind deluxe.
Like I said, most people here don't know much about lifting or think women can't build muscles at all, an untrained 150lbs dude in another thread said he's stronger than 80% of women on this site, which is absolutely delusional, then you get people who think Ida Bergforth or Melinda Lindmark are natural (lmao) .
Reality is lots of people are on PEDs, lots of people lie about it, some "sus" women are natty and others who look mediocre are on stuff, and the limits for what is achieavable naturally mostly depend on genetics and consistency (training/diet, etc.) .
Women like Luisita Leers, famous in the 1920-30s (so no steroids available) can be compared to some women on this site, the natty baseline are physiques from the bronze era, add something to that (modern knowledge, diets, bigger genetic pool, etc...) and that's basically as close as you can get to what is naturally achieavable.
Then it basically becomes a choice, either get bigger but with higher bodyfat, or smaller but leaner (like LBP).
LBP is a former gymnast, she's been training for years, her total is 700lbs or something, and she's great at abusing lighting/angles/pump when taking pictures to look bigger, is she natty? who knows, are her lifts and physique possible without stuff? Sure, some women I train with are bigger than her, and they're not on stuff.
Careful, you're making too much sense for this thread.
I don't really want to make a new thread for this so I'll leave it here:
This is Stephanie Foli admitting to taking anavar. Probably still untruthful about her dosage but at least it's a step in the right direction.
I disagree about it being a "step in the right direction." To start, Stephanie is definitely lying about "only using a bit of anavar and only during prep." I know a couple of women in my lifting circles who are on var-only cycles and the don't look anything close to her size and conditioning. It kind of reminds me of seeing Brandi Mae Akers in an episode of HBO Real Sports about female bodybuilding over a decade ago. Back then, this was before she reached her peak size, and she showed Bryan Gumbel her fridge which was full of every compound that you could think of. Back then, I was shocked: I honestly thought (in my ignorance) she was only on a small amount of gear. I only thought women like Lisa Cross and Tazzie Colomb were on that many compounds, but it opened my eyes to not only how prevalent gear usage is in female bodybuilding, but just how much they take.
I think women who downplay the amount of PEDs they use only do that as part of a calculated strategy. They know that more people are started to wizen up to PED use, and they know that they probably won't sound truthful if they pretend that they are natty. As a result, they severely downplay how much they use in order to build a narrative of "I only use this as a tiny supplement to help with competing, but still the MAJORITY of my results are natty." It's basically fake natty 2.0 (like dudes who claim they are "just on TRT" when they're in reality blasting test and other compounds.) And that's, again, to sell their programs/supplements.
idk why there’s a new one of these threads every week. almost all your favorite athletes aren’t natty. it’s not a big deal. move on
I disagree about it being a "step in the right direction." To start, Stephanie is definitely lying about "only using a bit of anavar and only during prep." I know a couple of women in my lifting circles who are on var-only cycles and the don't look anything close to her size and conditioning. It kind of reminds me of seeing Brandi Mae Akers in an episode of HBO Real Sports about female bodybuilding over a decade ago. Back then, this was before she reached her peak size, and she showed Bryan Gumbel her fridge which was full of every compound that you could think of. Back then, I was shocked: I honestly thought (in my ignorance) she was only on a small amount of gear. I only thought women like Lisa Cross and Tazzie Colomb were on that many compounds, but it opened my eyes to not only how prevalent gear usage is in female bodybuilding, but just how much they take.
Aww man. I have to disagree with you, old sport. I see what you're saying and I agree that the truth is not being completely disclosed. Here's where I disagree. I am glad that Stephanie disclosed as enhanced because it invites dialogue among people. Granted I have not followed her so I don't know if she is pivoting off of this as a financial boost for herself. I feel that a lack of dialogue in the fitness industry is where a lot of discourse happens. I noticed Greg(guy in the video) is out here selling supplements while bashing on her honesty of substance use, while he himself is a clear user of PEDs. The people most vulnerable to the fitness industry are people who are new and are subject to predatory marketing.
Aww man. I have to disagree with you, old sport. I see what you're saying and I agree that the truth is not being completely disclosed. Here's where I disagree. I am glad that Stephanie disclosed as enhanced because it invites dialogue among people. Granted I have not followed her so I don't know if she is pivoting off of this as a financial boost for herself. I feel that a lack of dialogue in the fitness industry is where a lot of discourse happens. I noticed Greg(guy in the video) is out here selling supplements while bashing on her honesty of substance use, while he himself is a clear user of PEDs. The people most vulnerable to the fitness industry are people who are new and are subject to predatory marketing.
I do agree with you about Greg (who sounds like Gilbert Gottfried if you ordered him off of Wish,) in that he is also a grifter (I also think he's a moron). But as a whole what Stephanie is part of a wider trend I am seeing of, instead of being fake natties, more influencers "admitting" to using, but heavily downplaying how much they use ("I am only on TRT!" "I only am on a bit of var and only for prep!") I don't know if it's for ego or preserving some kind of image, but it's annoying.
In short, I think fitness influencers as a whole (including Greg, MPMD and the like) should be taken with the grainiest of a grain of salt.
I do agree with you about Greg (who sounds like Gilbert Gottfried if you ordered him off of Wish,) in that he is also a grifter (I also think he's a moron). But as a whole what Stephanie is part of a wider trend I am seeing of, instead of being fake natties, more influencers "admitting" to using, but heavily downplaying how much they use ("I am only on TRT!" "I only am on a bit of var and only for prep!") I don't know if it's for ego or preserving some kind of image, but it's annoying.
Yes I agree with downplaying isn’t as helpful. She is, definitely, stacking more than just Var. As a whole though, it adds a little transparency, not a lot, but it’s progress. The more that common folks are introduced to these practices then the more they can make better informed decisions in fitness. I agree with your concerns; I stand on the belief that this helps more people as a whole. Take Kenny Ko. Are his videos cringe? Yeah sometimes, but it introduces the dialogue to his audience on the use of drugs to achieve these phenomenal physiques.
Kachi is a sweetheart and this isn't meant to bring any kind of negativity towards her, and as far as I know she hasn't been vocal about whether or not she's natty, however this comment made me facepalm:
If she's been natural this whole time then the game has fuxxed up and let her in.
It just goes back to the point about people needing to be educated more about what physiques are and aren't attainable for natural athletes.
idk why there’s a new one of these threads every week. almost all your favorite athletes aren’t natty. it’s not a big deal. move on
Morons seem to think steroids make the muscles just grow on their own instead of just making recovery faster, and activating certain muscle groups (like delts and traps) that don’t tend to grow on women.
Isn't the entire fitness industry a grift when you stop and think about it this way? Maybe social media has just given us a distorted idea of what a natural human body actually looks like.
And also given the false idea that because somebody is natty then you can expect the same result for yourself. The (real) natty influencers are at the upper end of the genetic spectrum. The average person will need PEDs to acheive the same physique. AND last but not least, they mostly show themselves under optimal conditions (lighting, angles, pump...).
Isn't the entire fitness industry a grift when you stop and think about it this way? Maybe social media has just given us a distorted idea of what a natural human body actually looks like.
there's a fine line between "providing a service" and "running a grift".
for me it's volume of clients and the services you can provide them, and how knowledgeable you are. i cannot tell you how many times i've seen people complain about their coach offering 24/7 access, custom programming, custom meal planning, and some or all of those things fall off quickly. not to mention some of these people are entrusting aspects of their health to someone who's total experience is maybe doing a plan for a friend, a few classes at university, and studying for a certificate. little to no practical experience, no science background at all, and running (in part) on youth.
Isn't the entire fitness industry a grift when you stop and think about it this way? Maybe social media has just given us a distorted idea of what a natural human body actually looks like.
Pretty much.
Like fp909 said, the problem is that you have a glut of fitness influencers with little, questionable or no qualifications, certifications, education or even coaching experience, offering exercise and diet advice, with their only marketable credentials being their physique or strength. Just because they do something that works for them, doesn't make them qualified to be giving advice to people of different athletic backgrounds and/or physical limitations, and of course those influencers might not be completely honest in their own routines and "supplementation." The best example I can think of is: the "worst" coach I ever had was a former gymnast turned Olympic weightlifter who was like 240+ pounds at sub-10% body fat. He was always an athlete, always had exceptional mobility, and he treated his clients learning gymnastics movements or the Olympic lifts as such, despite almost all of them not having those abilities. As such, his clients struggled with improving their technique. Meanwhile, the best trainer I know is an older retired university sports team strength and conditioning coach who knows how to tailor training to a person's abilities and limitations.
Honestly, basic fitness and getting into shape is pretty simple. For the vast majority of people, solid training programs and diet advice can be found for free online and in discussion boards, or through proven programs that are very affordable. They're not "sexy" programs, but boring works. The only time you should be looking into coaching or training is if you need accountability, you are a bodybuilder who wants to compete, you are a strength athlete wants to compete, or you want to get into a highly technical discipline (like Olympic Weightlifting,) and need an in-person coach to help with refining your technique. In those cases, the best trainers and coaches will often NOT be influencers with hundreds of thousands or millions of followers.
Same with supplementation. At the very most, you can get a protein powder for convenience's sake (a serving of tuna is basically the same mount of protein per serving and is much cheaper,) and creatine monohydrate, and that is IT. You don't need preworkout, BCAAs, mass gainers, fat burners (don't work), test boosters (again, don't work,) collagen protein, antioxident whatevers and so on.
Good advice and great trainers are out there, but you have to do your homework and not be seduced by flashy clickbaity influencers with reels promoting dumb inspirational messages over shitty music.
speak for yourself, zero chance i get through a 5a workout without a little zip in my system lmaoooo
but yeah. ytou should be paying for a coach for somethign specialized. maybe you're working up to a powerlifting meet, or a bodybuilding stage, in which case you're headed towards a goal that a lot of people can't get you to successfully.
if you're just looking to get in shape, lose a few pounds, pretty base level stuff, there are plenty of programs to get into on your own. i would agree that if you've never stepped foot in the gym absolutely maybe get a session or few with on-site trainers that can supervise you on equipment, make sure you know how things work, or basic free weight stuff so that you don't go off on your own and blow something out.
a key component of getting in shape and staying there is self-motivation, thats what will keep you going, not a coach you're paying for.
And also given the false idea that because somebody is natty then you can expect the same result for yourself. The (real) natty influencers are at the upper end of the genetic spectrum. The average person will need PEDs to acheive the same physique. AND last but not least, they mostly show themselves under optimal conditions (lighting, angles, pump...).
The issue with Natty(real or not) influencers is what are they trying to sell you. Social media as a whole has provider(someone offering you a service or product) and consumer. It is neither good nor bad because it just is to maintain sustainability of the platform. If a fitness influencer is selling you something then it is important to understand why. Energy drinks, protein powders, multivitamins, workout plans are the products being sold by the brand image(influencer).
Morally, I would imagine that people are ok with someone using PEDs. It seems that the issue stems off of the Ethical practices when combined with a product or service. Personally, I don’t care if they use since I love the result, but I do get frustrated when they provide misinformation by creating false expectation. Natty is an interesting term because the person can be off cycle and then technically they are natty by definition. On the other end of the spectrum, someone can’t claim natty because they have used before as if their genetics were altered somehow lol.
i would very much like to know the percentage of clients that ask about PEDs, and then the number of coaches that say "no" or "Yes" off the bat.
years ago i did brief training with dani reardon. i forgot what brought this on but i asked about pretty chump change PEDs and she basically told me "if you're not planning on competing you shouldn't even think about it"
thats what a good coach should do and i would hope that influencers don't go and get people on the juice just because they want to
years ago i did brief training with dani reardon. i forgot what brought this on but i asked about pretty chump change PEDs and she basically told me "if you're not planning on competing you shouldn't even think about it"
Good on her for looking out for you. For men, taking test is usually their introduction drug so I'm sure she was looking at your finances. It can get get expensive quick
I think we need to take into concideration girls genetics too. I know a girl who have looked kinda jacked her whole life. Not big big, but deffo strong. I know she has never touched steroids or even creatin. She looks big, but strenght wise peaked at age 18 to 20, and has stayed at the same kinda strenght level since ( 25 now).
Yeah, this is a perfect example in my eyes to highlight general PED use among girls. That type of muscularity on a girl is basically impossible without PEDs, no matter if the total amount of muscles is naturally achievable or not. PED users like her have the same basic characteristics - Wider shoulders, massive delts and basically popping muscles everywhere. That is not how a girl would grow over time from just training naturally. I can even see hints of her cheeks getting altered, give it a couple of months and the change will be clear even there.
However I do think girls on PEDs generally get a nicer looking body physique (she does look awesome in the video) compared to girls who have been training naturally for years (who aren't many nowadays). But the other the changes that come with PEDs like longer cheeks, altered upper lip, altered nose, deepened voice etc. and a less feminine eye glow will make PEDs not worth it, if you ask me.