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Why are negative comments permitted at all?

Dec 08, 2023 - permalink

Question for the mods.

I follow a ton of "shout-out" accounts for FBB's on Instagram, and most of them have a policy against any negative comments. This is due to the open garden, lowest common denominator nature of social media. They could post of the prettiest photo of Vladi, and some idiot will reply with "THAT's A MAN BABY!"

But it made me think: why not simply have that policy here? Why are any negative comments allowed on images of girls with muscle?

Look, I imagine that there's a few goals for every image posted:

1) Highlight the achievements of a muscular woman 2) Get eyeballs and clicks on site advertisements 3) Provide arousing eye candy for guys and girls who are attracted to muscular women

And when I click on a photo and see someone bitching about tattoos, or PED side effects, or the model's politics or sexuality, it's just a buzzkill.

Not to mention, I think we'd all like the women themselves to visit the site and enjoy having their pictures posted on it. Can't be a good experience for those ladies to see their pics getting hated on. I can't imagine that would make them want to participate more.

I understand that you can't personally monitor every single comment, but I think a blanket statement of "no bad vibes" and a disclaimer that negative commenters face a permanent ban would probably do a lot. I'm all for free speech but this is a private site and not a social discussion platform. You can allow or forbid whatever discourse that you want.

Dec 08, 2023 - edited Dec 08, 2023 - permalink

Honestly I think it's pretty dumb too when guys comment very negative shit (we all think stuff like that sometimes but why bother write it).

However I think banning people for that is not a great idea. First I imagine mods already have a ton of content to moderate.

Then I don't really see that many negative comments to begin with. At most I'd vote for a voting system on the comments (upvote / downvote). And after a certain number of downvotes it gets collapsed like on Reddit. That way the community can self-moderate the comments.

(I think an upvote/downvote system would be nice for the forums too)

Dec 08, 2023 - permalink

Honestly I think it's pretty dumb too when guys comment negative shit (we all think stuff like that but why bother write it).

But I think banning people for that is not a great idea. First I imagine mods already have a ton of content to moderate.

Then I don't really see that many negative comments to begin with. At most I'd vote for a voting system on the comments (upvote / downvote). And after a certain number of downvotes it gets collapsed like on Reddit. That way the community can self-moderate the comments.

(I think an upvote/downvote system would be nice for the forums too)

Good call... I do like the upvote/downvote system.

IDK I come across a pretty decent amount of negative comments on images, but that might just be the girls that I'm following.

The forums are what they are - I don't really have a problem with people speaking their mind there. There are some world-class clowns like "zarklephaser" and "leglover" who routinely troll everyone and say the most hateful and misogynist stuff though. It's a mystery why they're not banned, but the mods here seem to take a hands off approach that way. To the detriment of the overall community IMO.

But the forum isn't nearly as front-facing, so I'm not that concerned.

Dec 08, 2023 - permalink

I will preface this by saying I am one of those who does voice my personal opinion about tattoos in comments here and my comments are always, or pretty much always, negative as I think tattoos, and not just tattoos on muscular women but tattoos on any version of the human body, look awful. Having said that I still try not to be outright nasty or insulting but to simply give my honest opinion.

There is such a thing as freedom of speech. Not everything in life is happy and positive. Of course there is being negative while giving your honest and personal opinion and that can be different to simply being rude, nasty and insulting.

I understand what you're saying, or at least trying to say here, that this site should be somewhere safe and a happy place to visit for everyone, especially for the women displayed in these photos and videos, but unless the comments are simply rude or insulting or in any other way nasty, or anything else like that, then I don't think someone giving their opinion on a site where we can comment on photos and videos is wrong.

When a woman decides to make herself muscular and is displaying her body for the world to see she is putting herself out there and I think we should be allowed to express our opinions on that woman. Also a lot of these women compete in various versions of physique competitions and with that they are judged on how they look, good or bad, and the judges are giving their opinions on how these women look. Of course the judges wouldn't be insulting or rude but should those judges only make kind, happy, positive comments about how these women look? No and I think that's the same here with our comments. Again, as I said, as long as the comments aren't simply rude or insulting or in any way negative for the sake of simply being negative then I don't think it's wrong to give our own personal opinions, good or bad.

For the most part I think GWM is a happy, friendly place where we can enjoy these beautiful photos and have some fun with everyone, including some of the women in these photos, and I for one enjoy coming here and being a part of this wonderful world of Girls With Muscle.

Dec 08, 2023 - permalink

Good call... I do like the upvote/downvote system.

IDK I come across a pretty decent amount of negative comments on images, but that might just be the girls that I'm following.

The forums are what they are - I don't really have a problem with people speaking their mind there. There are some world-class clowns like "zarklephaser" and "leglover" who routinely troll everyone and say the most hateful and misogynist stuff though. It's a mystery why they're not banned, but the mods here seem to take a hands off approach that way. To the detriment of the overall community IMO.

But the forum isn't nearly as front-facing, so I'm not that concerned.

Well, comments are hidden from unregistered users too. I remember Chainer took this decision due to girls being weirded out by the comments and then requesting to be removed from the site (actually mostly the "overly-positve" ones, if you know what I mean).

But to be fair I like that Chainer and the mods are based and don't ban people or girls unless it's something really bad. I think it's way worse to be banned for saying "I don't dig her new tattoos" or have girls being banned left and right for "being nazis" or doing whatever illegal/controversial in their private lives than having to ignore a few assholes in the comments.

Dec 08, 2023 - permalink

Who cares what others think? Seeking to eliminate any criticism makes you seem like a simp.

Dec 08, 2023 - edited Dec 08, 2023 - permalink

Okay guys, here's a great example:

Now, I'm not attracted to her look. But plenty of guys are. She's got 60k followers on Instagram. Clearly there's a crowd that appreciates her physique. She seems like a cool and relatable person who might be interested to interact on a site like this.

But then we've got gems like this: "Genuine question - how do we know this isn’t a dude"

I'm not being a "simp" because I don't think guys should be allowed to be assholes in image comments. I'm just being a decent person. I can't imagine that Paige likes reading this. I can't imagine that the fans of her pics (this has 31 likes) enjoy reading this. Like I said, it's simply a buzzkill on a site with erotic content.

In this case, the user who posted that comment is actually deleted - maybe because he got banned for even worse things. If so, why is his comment still there? For the crowd that's so hardcore about gender being determined by birth... Paige DuMars is 100% a genetic female woman. Born that way. Stayed that way. All the male hormones and crazy hairdos doesn't change that. So why allow weird transphobic comments for someone who isn't even trans? Shout-out pages doesn't tolerate that nonsense.

Dec 08, 2023 - permalink

There's a reason it's the FIRST amendment. The most important freedom of all.

Dec 08, 2023 - permalink

There's a reason it's the FIRST amendment. The most important freedom of all.

Oh snap, I never realized that the first amendment applied to privately run websites.

Honestly this response is so foolish that I can't even fathom your thought process. Like, are you really ignorant of how 1A applies to a site like this or are you just trolling me?

Dec 08, 2023 - permalink

Sorry but if we don't criticize we they won't improve. some people don't take any criticism others will just laugh and call them virgins or jealous. sometimes I see a comment calling women masculine when they are not. I want to call them all sorts of insults and slurs but then I would be the one being banned. when I see a guy complaining about implants I want to call them bundle of sticks. if you know what I mean. but I hate banning stuff unless it's really just spam.

Dec 08, 2023 - permalink

There's a reason it's the FIRST amendment. The most important freedom of all.

It's funny how the people who yell "first amendment!" the most have no actual idea what it entails.

Anyway, good post Muscles, but I honestly don't know what a good solution would be. I think there should at least be a broad "don't be a dick" kind of disclaimer that pops up when a user is about to submit a comment. An upvote/downvote system, where a certain amount of downvotes hides a comment, might be a good move.

I will preface this by saying I am one of those who does voice my personal opinion about tattoos in comments here and my comments are always, or pretty much always, negative as I think tattoos, and not just tattoos on muscular women but tattoos on any version of the human body, look awful. Having said that I still try not to be outright nasty or insulting but to simply give my honest opinion.

But at that point, doesn't it become pretty redundant? I kind of roll my eyes when I see in people's post histories multiple comments about how tattoos are awful and ugly. We get it: why feel the need to comment it on every single woman that has it? That would be like me, a Magic the Gathering player who favors playing with red and black, go a blue-enthusiasts group or forum and talk about how much blue magic sucks and that people who always use counterspell instants are wimps.

Dec 08, 2023 - edited Dec 08, 2023 - permalink

Okay guys, here's a great example:

Now, I'm not attracted to her look. But plenty of guys are. She's got 60k followers on Instagram. Clearly there's a crowd that appreciates her physique. She seems like a cool and relatable person who might be interested to interact on a site like this.

But then we've got gems like this: "Genuine question - how do we know this isn’t a dude"

I'm not being a "simp" because I don't think guys should be allowed to be assholes in image comments. I'm just being a decent person. I can't imagine that Paige likes reading this. I can't imagine that the fans of her pics (this has 31 likes) enjoy reading this. Like I said, it's simply a buzzkill on a site with erotic content.

In this case, the user who posted that comment is actually deleted - maybe because he got banned for even worse things. If so, why is his comment still there? For the crowd that's so hardcore about gender being determined by birth... Paige DuMars is 100% a genetic female woman. Born that way. Stayed that way. All the male hormones and crazy hairdos doesn't change that. So why allow weird transphobic comments for someone who isn't even trans? Shout-out pages doesn't tolerate that nonsense.

Well, this site has a rule against posting trans women ("No images of trans women (see the forum section instead)."). It's also discouraged (not prohibited) to post "Images lacking femininity". So I guess raising the question whether someone with facial hair is a female or not is not exactly out of context. It's ignorant (because they can do their research) but not what I would consider a bannable offense.

And just to be clear, I respect those rules and I think it's better to abide the theme of this site (girls with muscle) than being politically correct.

Dec 08, 2023 - permalink

Well, this site has a rule against posting trans women ("No images of trans women (see the forum section instead)."). It's also discouraged (not prohibited) to post "Images lacking femininity". So I guess raising the question whether someone with facial hair is a female or not is not exactly out of context.

And just to be clear, I respect those rules and I think it's better to abide the theme of this site (girls with muscle) than being politically correct.

Yeah I get that.

Paige isn't a trans woman. This is verified.

She doesn't have facial hair.

Who decides what's feminine or not? I wouldn't call Paige feminine, but I wouldn't call a LOT of women feminine on this site. Some people would. That's totally subjective. And it's established that Paige is a muscular woman with a significant fan base, so plenty of guys are into her.

So all that said, why tolerate comments that say she's trans or she "looks like a dude." It's needlessly offensive to her and the guys who like her

Dec 08, 2023 - permalink

Yeah I get that.

Paige isn't a trans woman. This is verified.

She doesn't have facial hair.

Who decides what's feminine or not? I wouldn't call Paige feminine, but I wouldn't call a LOT of women feminine on this site. Some people would. That's totally subjective. And it's established that Paige is a muscular woman with a significant fan base, so plenty of guys are into her.

So all that said, why tolerate comments that say she's trans or she "looks like a dude." It's needlessly offensive to her and the guys who like her

Check this out: https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cu8j0cWqbeW/?hl=en or this: https://www.instagram.com/p/CuVZUACOPEe/?hl=en

Let's be real, she rocks a very nice 5 o'clock beard and she is not afraid to show it. Either way, I wouldn't want to get into this specific polemic.

I agree that there is a wide specter of preferences when it comes to us the guys who like buff women. What is feminine is somewhat subjective, sure (gotta remember that guys outside this scene call even bikini models or tennis players "dudes" and we are by their standards fully "gay"), but I think most of us have a sense for what is considered feminine for FBBs and what goes to the edge.

I know a lot of guys like the women who go close to the border between woman and trans (some appear in the top voted section) and I respect that so I won't comment on it. But again, I wouldn't think it's a bannable offense if someone voices their opinion (in a dencent manner) that it may be too much for this site (considering the actual rules).

Not talking about any particular person here, but a combination of certain masculine features may be enough to raise such comments.

[deleted]
Dec 08, 2023 - permalink

a reminder that as with most images (especially when some of the bulk uploaders come around and leave a large pile of fresh uploads) it's hard to parse all the images and then their comments. i routinely delete pretty bad comments and issue warnings.

another reminder (and maybe some of you weren't members then) that a while back image comments used to be public and it was changed to require joining the site to read and comments. women were seeing some of the stuff left on their photos and getting upset an dperhaps requesting their photos removed. even after that change it still happens. i got reports from Sarah Crail because people were saying stuff about her forehead that she didn't like.

anyways. some will probably notice that a few of the serial poor commentors no longer leave comments. in the case of the above photo, its two years old, and maybe once a blue moon we'll get a report about comments from older images, or on the images themselves (it's rare, but it happens). personally, if i see a particular bad comment i'll take al ook at the user's comment history, more often than note there's other inane, dumb, bad comments that I will remove.

Dec 08, 2023 - permalink

Yeah I get that.

Paige isn't a trans woman. This is verified.

She doesn't have facial hair.

Who decides what's feminine or not? I wouldn't call Paige feminine, but I wouldn't call a LOT of women feminine on this site. Some people would. That's totally subjective. And it's established that Paige is a muscular woman with a significant fan base, so plenty of guys are into her.

So all that said, why tolerate comments that say she's trans or she "looks like a dude." It's needlessly offensive to her and the guys who like her

And to be honest, most of her IG pictures include the tags "#tomboy #masc #masclesbian #lesbian", so I don't get why she gets offended. She's not technically a man, she identifies as a woman but she clearly goes for a very masculine look (#masc) and achieves that pretty well (let's be real, she's probably more handsome than most of us here).

So I feel it's more her problem if she gets offended.

Dec 08, 2023 - permalink

Muscles_Toez, you don't want a vivid forum. Instead you want a safe space.

Dec 08, 2023 - permalink

With that page du mars image i would have just said that she would look better with long hair or something. but some people could consider that an insult too. I know she tries to look manly on purpose so she wouldn't like my comment. but she isn't trans she just likes to have a more manly lifestyle. but still considers herself female.

Chainer
Dec 08, 2023 - permalink

So all that said, why tolerate comments that say she's trans or she "looks like a dude."

Because the second one of those is actually true?

(I will write a longer post later, don't have time right now)

Dec 08, 2023 - edited Dec 08, 2023 - permalink

Because the second one of those is actually true?

(I will write a longer post later, don't have time right now)

It's subjective though isn't it?

Outside of this community, the vast majority of people think that each and every Olympia competitor looks like a dude. Put a pic of Chelsea Dion or Angela Yeo on Facebook and you'll attract those kind of trans hate comments like an electromagnet. Would you allow someone to leave that as a comment on their pages?

Muscles_Toez, you don't want a vivid forum. Instead you want a safe space.

That's accurate. I want to see photos and get turned on by them without hearing someone bitching about tattoos or the fact that the model is a lesbian. I guess the question is: why does the image comment section have to be an open forum? Keeping negativity off the pics is respectful to both the models involved and the guys who like them. Even moreso the second group as we're the ones actively logged in and using the site more than the girls themselves.

Like.. if I’m at a strip club, I don’t need to hear the dudes next to me criticizing the stripper that I like. The bouncers wouldn’t stand for it either

Dec 08, 2023 - permalink

There's a reason it's the FIRST amendment. The most important freedom of all.

The FIRST amendment to the AMERICAN constitution applies to every other country on this planet and every other citizen of the planet and to the world wide web, does it? Really? I'm Australian and the American constitution, in any way, shape or form, does not apply to me and will never apply to me, unless I visit any part of the United States Of America.

Having said that, remember it is an amendment to your constitution and therefore it can be amended too(take the prohibition amendment and subsequent repealing as an obvious example).

Dec 08, 2023 - permalink

^^ Good point.

And if I'm going to make this into a teachable moment on the 1st Amendement: here's a gross simplification as there are lots of small points and caveats to consider, but here it goes:

We (Americans) have freedom of speech in public spaces and freedom from prosecution from the government for what we say (provided it's not criminal or inciting criminal activity).

That's why a group of literal nazis can chant literal nazi slogans on a public street in front of a courthouse.

This freedom does not apply to private spaces. Those nazis can't chant inside a Wal-Mart. Or a privately owned shopping mall. Or... on a privately owned website like GWM or a privately owned platform like Facebook or X. Private spaces can regulate against speech which they find objectionable or harmful.

I'm pretty sure that the mods of GWM would NOT allow nazi slogans in the comments. Or nakedly racist comments. You are free to say them in public spaces, but you would not be free to say them on this site.

Which means: comments that are otherwise derogatory or demeaning are considered acceptable by this site. There is a conscious choice to allow that specific speech. The scope of what is allowed is subjective, and it is not subject to the 1st Amendment.

tamarok
Dec 08, 2023 - edited Dec 08, 2023 - permalink

The FIRST amendment to the AMERICAN constitution applies to every other country on this planet and every other citizen of the planet and to the world wide web, does it? Really? I'm Australian and the American constitution, in any way, shape or form, does not apply to me and will never apply to me, unless I visit any part of the United States Of America.

Having said that, remember it is an amendment to your constitution and therefore it can be amended too(take the prohibition amendment and subsequent repealing as an obvious example).

I’ll add the first amendment is designed to prevent the USA government from censoring speech, within it’s jurisdiction, and not private entities. In a number of jurisdictions there is even then notion of “hate speech”, which does have legal implications and sites are typically required to remove such text.

Even when freedom of speech is permitted, it is not free of potential consequences.

As a site we need to balance out letting people have a free conversation, while removing anything negative or anything that can be hurtful. It is hard getting it right and I doubt we will get it fully right every time, but we will try to make a reasonable judgement, given the context.

If someone can’t be civil with their communication, then this is probably not the right place for them.

Chainer
Dec 09, 2023 - permalink

First off, every time this comes up people bring up the first amendment, and yeah, as it's been pointed out, it's completely irrelevant here.

It is my personal preference that I don't like to police comments based on content. I often moderate posts and users based on things like tone, rudeness, tact, repetitiveness, etc., and I generally think that the more negative the thing you're saying is, the more consideration you should put into it. That said, deleting a post based on what it's saying just feels like pretense to me, of the "let's just pretend that no one actually thinks this" variety, and I guess I just don't like pretense.

It's funny to me that "Paige Dumars looks like a man" is your go-to example because it's a perfect showcase of this. It's uncontroversial to the point that I'm pretty sure Paige herself would agree with it, given that she put a lot of work into looking the way she does, and it's not like it happened by accident. But, according to you, God forbid that someone actually say this very obvious thing; let's just instead ban whoever says it and pretend it isn't true.

Regarding your other point:

Not to mention, I think we'd all like the women themselves to visit the site and enjoy having their pictures posted on it. Can't be a good experience for those ladies to see their pics getting hated on. I can't imagine that would make them want to participate more.

Based on image removal requests I've gotten from women, I think the feeling of being sexualized and the part where the comments are written by men who say things like:

I want to see photos and get turned on by them

is way more of a factor than negative comments. Now, the mod team and I are doing what we can to curb the most egregious users guilty of this, but I think if I banned it altogether we would no longer have a comment section. Plus, it would amount to pretending that it isn't true, which have I mentioned, I don't like to do?

cgsweat
Dec 09, 2023 - permalink

Just adding to Chainer's response, we also don't actively comb through all of the comments being made under every image and forum thread. We rely on comment reports, and so if it's not reported, then chances are it (the egregious comment) will never be addressed.

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