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What's the nicest way to ask if someone really is a muscular *woman*?

Jul 11, 2023 - edited Jul 11, 2023 - permalink

Here's the story behind the title of the subject: there is a person who lives in my neighborhood who is not only quite friendly but pretty muscular -- I'd say this person has a build somewhat above the fitness category, but not quite physique. Clearly, this person works out on a consistent basis and takes it seriously. I cross paths with this person a few times a month as I (and this person as well) stroll around the neighborhood frequently.

But the kicker is that I can't figure it out: is this person truly a muscular woman, or a transman? This person certainly doesn't dress like a man. And this person also has what looks like natural/normal looking breasts (i.e. no implants). But the face gives me pause -- I usually see him/her in shades, but even when I saw his/her face without shades I couldn't tell for sure. This person is not very attractive, but not ugly either. Even the voice gives me pause -- this person has said "hi" to me whenever I pass by him/her, and seems like a friendly citizen, but even hearing his/her voice I couldn't quite put my finger on it. It wasn't exactly feminine, but it wasn't exactly deep either (not to single her out, but let's just say Sheila Bleck has a deeper voice than this individual).

And I've never seen this person with another person. He or she is either walking around alone, or waiting at the corner, apparently waiting to meet someone. Quite a strange individual, and I wouldn't even give this person a second look if they didn't have muscles and had physically feminine features.

I'm almost certain this person is a transman, as the community of muscular woman is small here, and I've never seen this individual either on this site nor social media. But I can't tell for sure with complete certainty. So the question is: what is the nicest way to find out if this person really is a woman or not? Should I simply ask him/her "Are you a female bodybuilder?" or even "Are you a woman?" I've thought of that, but I also know how offensive some might take it (especially in this day and age). And after all, female bodybuilders are continually discriminated and get asked these kinds of questions on a regular basis. So I know how not only offensive it can be to ask these questions, but also hurtful.

But I can't figure out a better way to ask except bluntly so. Is there a better way to approach this situation without hurting his/her feelings or creating an awkward scene?

fp909
Jul 11, 2023 - permalink

** In advance of any other responses, as soon as there is mudslinging user vs user this thread is locked.

Jul 11, 2023 - permalink

Why don't you just strike up a friendly, non-loaded conversation with them? Ask them about their interests, hobbies, childhood etc.. It'll take a little longer, but you may not ever have to ask or make things weird with a neighbor

Jul 11, 2023 - permalink

Mmh i guess she could have just used a lot of steroids. but i fear she is probably trans but i have no idea what she looks like. it can be hard to tell from a distance. as for asking her i think it depends on your region. if you live in a place like London or sanfransisco it could be seen as offensive just to ask .but in most places it's not a big deal .but i would get to know her better before asking just in case and you can probably tell without asking.

Jul 11, 2023 - permalink

Why do you need to know?

Anyway, "are you a woman", is going to be offensive in any age. If she is a woman, the implication is that she doesn't look like one, which is obviously offensive. If she's not, then it's not really a strangers place to ask such personal questions.

I wouldn't bother asking at all. But if you insist, then Kerry's indirect approach is best.

Chainer
Jul 11, 2023 - permalink

I don't have a good answer to the question you are asking (I agree KerryD's approach seems good though) but this:

I've never seen this individual either on this site nor social media

Probably doesn't mean much. I would guess that the majority of women muscular enough in the world to appear on this site, or on social media, are not on this site.

Chainer
Jul 11, 2023 - permalink

** In advance of any other responses, as soon as there is mudslinging user vs user this thread is locked.

Also if I may amend this, rather than lock the thread right off the bat (although maybe it will come to that) I'm happy to just ban anyone who slings mud.

Jul 11, 2023 - edited Jul 11, 2023 - permalink

Why don't you just strike up a friendly, non-loaded conversation with them? Ask them about their interests, hobbies, childhood etc.. It'll take a little longer, but you may not ever have to ask or make things weird with a neighbor

I see what you're saying, and you probably have the most sensible approach, but when it comes to women, I know what type I like and, to not waste time, I like to build up the conversation to eventually ask the vital questions sooner rather than later, i.e. are you seeing anyone? Would you like to hang out? Are you free for coffee later? etc.

Why I don't also strike up a conversation with that person is that simply because I'm not interested in getting to know, in a sexual manner, men or trans. I like muscular women, fit/athletic women, and non-muscular women -- in that order. That's it. If they're none of these, then I simply couldn't muster the motivation to strike up the conversation, in regards to dating/hooking up, with them, and thus would be wasting my time and, more importantly, theirs.

(But I do concur, generally, that starting off with non-loaded conversations where you get to know one another a little at a time, making them feel comfortable, etc. can be conducive to something great in the long run)

By the way, just to clarify, this person is not my neighbor (doesn't even live in the same building I do), and I only see this individual a few times per month on average, and that's by chance. All I know is that they live in the neighborhood somewhere in proximity to where I live.

Jul 11, 2023 - edited Jul 11, 2023 - permalink

Why do you need to know?

Anyway, "are you a woman", is going to be offensive in any age. If she is a woman, the implication is that she doesn't look like one, which is obviously offensive. If she's not, then it's not really a strangers place to ask such personal questions.

I wouldn't bother asking at all. But if you insist, then Kerry's indirect approach is best.

I need to know because if she's indeed a muscular woman, then I would absolutely be interested in dating/hooking up with her. If it's a trans, then no, I'm not interested. The sooner I get to know, the less time we both waste.

Put it this way: when I went to a bodybuilding show, I knew who the "famous" (in quotes because they're famous insofar as the community goes) female bodybuilders were, and right off the bat I introduced myself, chatted with them, took pictures, and even one "well-known" female bodybuilder followed me on Instagram (we still message from time to time).

In the audience, there were clearly some women with well-defined physiques, who I also chatted with. Then there were others that were ...let's just say quite ambiguous. I did not talk to them.

(I mean, look at my profile and who I've posted. I've posted some women even some fbb fans might find too much. Colette Guimond is one of my faves of all time, if that helps to lend insight into the type of women I'm attracted to.)

So honestly, I'm kind of a simple man in these matters lol. And I also like to settle my curiosity, but I also try to avoid being a dick about it. And I like to be efficient with time, mine and theirs. So that's why I'd like to know...in a tactful manner, of course, which doesn't betray my inherently cordial nature (if it's possible in this case.)

Jul 11, 2023 - edited Jul 11, 2023 - permalink

I don't have a good answer to the question you are asking (I agree KerryD's approach seems good though) but this:

Probably doesn't mean much. I would guess that the majority of women muscular enough in the world to appear on this site, or on social media, are not on this site.

I think you bring up a good point re: not seeing them on social media/internet. And I don't have a good answer either, especially in today's increasingly complicated (and sensitive) world when it comes to genders**, which is what motivated me to initiate this post. But there have been good points raised.

(**As an off-topic aside, I find this to be a very western notion. Ladyboys, as they are still called there, are not uncommon in Thailand, for example, and if you're not sure, you can simply ask them if they are, and the majority of them will answer honestly and not be offended. I drank and ate with them, I just never dated them. Everyone still gets along, it's refreshing, and it's a very different mindset compared to the west.)

Jul 11, 2023 - permalink

Mmh i guess she could have just used a lot of steroids. but i fear she is probably trans but i have no idea what she looks like. it can be hard to tell from a distance. as for asking her i think it depends on your region. if you live in a place like London or sanfransisco it could be seen as offensive just to ask .but in most places it's not a big deal .but i would get to know her better before asking just in case and you can probably tell without asking.

Good points raised here, especially your last sentence. Maybe find out which clubs they hang out at. The gay bars are well known here even if you never stepped into one, and if that person cites one of those bars, that can be a clue. I also wish it wasn't a big deal in more places...but I guess it's dependent on the individual as well.

Jul 11, 2023 - permalink

Many things to say to this. I am not sure if I have mentioned it here already, but I am almost sure there is a phenomenon I'd dub "the trans voice", an example of which you can find here. The person was known for the greatest part of his life as Joachim Holmer. I'd describe it as a combination of a preteen boy and nasal congestion. This may be a clue or not. But this is not the only verified trans person I've heard sounding like this.

Ladyboys, as they are still called there, are not uncommon in Thailand

The big difference is that ladyboys are a category of their own. You don't insult them by referring to them as "men trying to pass off as women", because their answer is something like "yes, that's what we are". Not so with trans persons.

I'm almost certain this person is a transman

I'm sure, because you obviously did not intend to offend anyone, that this is a honest mistake. But the way it commonly goes is that transwomen are persons who are biologically male but believe they're women. This linguistically implies that these biological males are a type of woman. Calling them transmen would do the opposite, saying in effect that they are "biological men who have transitioned into something" and relegating the fact that they believe they're women now into a private matter.

It's like I wanted one day to be Albert Einstein and you would call me transeinstein to emphasize that I am truly a type of Einstein now, or transzarkle to emphasize that I'm just zarkle who thinks he's somebody else. This of course presupposes the belief that social world is construed linguistically, so by controlling language you control social reality. Instead of just trying to make language correspond with physical reality.

Unless you really intended to say that you believe the person is a woman who has transitioned into a man.

This person certainly doesn't dress like a man.

A thing that both applies to ladyboys and trans persons is that they easily overemphasize their target gender. This happens when they don't need to really suffer its downsides but can in a way pick and choose. So in case it seems too obvious that someone is a woman and there are telltales sprinkled everywhere, such as more pink items than in the Barbie section of a toy store, it's probable that "lady" doth protest too much.

But in case the person dresses like an average woman, this does not apply.

I need to know because if she's indeed a muscular woman, then I would absolutely be interested in dating/hooking up with her.

What if you put the person aside and just hooked up with the muscles? I'm maybe joking a little. Not accusing you of anything. But trying to home in on what is important here. The sine qua non (the thing without which it wouldn't be what it is). What would you feel about the person if the muscles weren't there but the person was guaranteed to be a biological woman?

A thing to note is that if someone prefers to remain in the shadows, both literally and figuratively, then there's usually good reasons for it, though not necessarily this particular one. Not necessarily anything sinister either.

Everyone still gets along, it's refreshing, and it's a very different mindset compared to the west.

There is a social world where biological gender matters. There is not and never has been a social world where biological gender simply does not matter or is not an issue. But there is a social world where biological gender should not matter and that's an imperative. So one side is accusing the other of overriding a physical fact with a social construct and the other one is accusing the first one of overriding a social construct with a physical fact.

To the question of why (do you need to know) there is an easy and obvious answer: Because it has a tendency to screw with people's minds. Easily and often. And it's an obvious example of gaslighting to blame a person for feeling uneasy about the confusion. The argument goes that you should be ashamed of trying to undermine them as a representative of their chosen gender, while they are totally shameless about undermining what you may consider important. In the end it's a war, no use pretending otherwise, and one side will undermine the other no matter what. Unless we find that one of the positions is parasitic upon the other or self-undermining, but let's not go into that now. Except that if such a position were to win, everyone would be screwed.

It is a valid argument though that you're not entitled to know the biological gender of the checkout person in a grocery store. But it's different when it comes to personal relationships. The problem seems to be that you're in a limbo between these two. You would need to go forward to know, while you would like to know before going forward.

And probably everyone notices that when you don't know what the other person really is, this gives them an advantage and leaves you at a disadvantage. The other person obviously knows your gender and can make choices accordingly.

To cap this dilemma, my new favorite definition for obsession is to put more energy into something than is warranted by the facts and circumstances. The second one is an inability to limit the amount of effort. Not saying this applies to you, and you sound more like "would be nice to know" than "I'll die if I don't find out", but here too awareness is the key.

Jul 11, 2023 - edited Jul 11, 2023 - permalink

I need to know because if she's indeed a muscular woman, then I would absolutely be interested in dating/hooking up with her. If it's a trans, then no, I'm not interested. The sooner I get to know, the less time we both waste.

I'm going to echo what another poster said while adding to it when I ask "why at this point does it matter?"

It sounds like you are trying to put the horses before the cart. What makes you think she is interested in hooking up/dating you? It sounds like the most contact that she has given you is simply saying "hi." Have you made any effort to get to know her? See what she interested in and what kind of lifestyle that she has?

Why I don't also strike up a conversation with that person is that simply because I'm not interested in getting to know, in a sexual manner, men or trans. I like muscular women, fit/athletic women, and non-muscular women -- in that order. That's it. If they're none of these, then I simply couldn't muster the motivation to strike up the conversation, in regards to dating/hooking up, with them, and thus would be wasting my time and, more importantly, theirs.

So...you're only interested in striking up a conversation with someone if you want to have sex with them? Again, you have no way of knowing if this person wants that from you. You lose nothing by trying to get to know this person, and even if she is "assigned female at birth," it doesn't guarantee that it will go further than a friendship, if that. You're fantasizing about a scenario in which you haven't even taxied onto the runway. And for all your talk about wasting time, unfortunately that's the reality when dating and trying to establish sexual relationships at all. Before I met my now-girlfriend, I had a LOT of dates that were promising but went nowhere, those that never got off the ground to begin with, etc. That's just the reality of it.

And if and when it does get to the point where it becomes sexual, at that point she would probably tell you. Being transgender unfortunately still carries a lot of stigma, and in a lot of cases can be downright dangerous for the person. There are good reasons why many of them don't disclose their status publicly, and quite frankly unless its leading to sex, it's none of your business.

And it goes without saying, but don't refer to a transgender person as "it." Regardless of whether you "agree" with it or not, calling another human being "it" is rude and offensive.

Jul 11, 2023 - permalink

** In advance of any other responses, as soon as there is mudslinging user vs user this thread is locked.

It's bullshit. You know it and that's why you used this specific language here.

You guys running around here acting like young men and women shouldn't wanna fuck-at-first-site are being completely dismissive of a quarter-million years of human evolution. Biology is still what it is.

On the street, you have the right to NOT answer any question you don't want to. But you don't have the right to control what people ask.

Jul 11, 2023 - permalink

Here's the story behind the title of the subject: there is a person who lives in my neighborhood who is not only quite friendly but pretty muscular -- I'd say this person has a build somewhat above the fitness category, but not quite physique. Clearly, this person works out on a consistent basis and takes it seriously. I cross paths with this person a few times a month as I (and this person as well) stroll around the neighborhood frequently.

But the kicker is that I can't figure it out: is this person truly a muscular woman, or a transman? This person certainly doesn't dress like a man. And this person also has what looks like natural/normal looking breasts (i.e. no implants). But the face gives me pause -- I usually see him/her in shades, but even when I saw his/her face without shades I couldn't tell for sure. This person is not very attractive, but not ugly either. Even the voice gives me pause -- this person has said "hi" to me whenever I pass by him/her, and seems like a friendly citizen, but even hearing his/her voice I couldn't quite put my finger on it. It wasn't exactly feminine, but it wasn't exactly deep either (not to single her out, but let's just say Sheila Bleck has a deeper voice than this individual).

And I've never seen this person with another person. He or she is either walking around alone, or waiting at the corner, apparently waiting to meet someone. Quite a strange individual, and I wouldn't even give this person a second look if they didn't have muscles and had physically feminine features.

I'm almost certain this person is a transman, as the community of muscular woman is small here, and I've never seen this individual either on this site nor social media. But I can't tell for sure with complete certainty. So the question is: what is the nicest way to find out if this person really is a woman or not? Should I simply ask him/her "Are you a female bodybuilder?" or even "Are you a woman?" I've thought of that, but I also know how offensive some might take it (especially in this day and age). And after all, female bodybuilders are continually discriminated and get asked these kinds of questions on a regular basis. So I know how not only offensive it can be to ask these questions, but also hurtful.

But I can't figure out a better way to ask except bluntly so. Is there a better way to approach this situation without hurting his/her feelings or creating an awkward scene?

Based on your story, there's nothing to "figure out". Generally, the polite thing to do is to treat people as they are presenting. Gender-neutral niceties are still being developed. What you're wrestling with is not unusual, but at the same time, it is also something you DON'T have to wrestle with, except by choice. Being a good neighbor rarely ever involves "figuring out" the biological sex or gender identity or sexual orientation of your neighbor(s).

fp909
Jul 11, 2023 - permalink

It's bullshit. You know it and that's why you used this specific language here.

You guys running around here acting like young men and women shouldn't wanna fuck-at-first-site are being completely dismissive of a quarter-million years of human evolution. Biology is still what it is.

On the street, you have the right to NOT answer any question you don't want to. But you don't have the right to control what people ask.

Who said anything about controlling what people ask lmao

Jul 12, 2023 - permalink

Yeah I definitely would just start talking to this person, get to know them. I mean either you have a muscular woman that could be interested in you cuz you’re a nice guy. Or you have a trans man that you become friends with and that’s it. I feel like there’s no real negatives to just being nice and striking up a conversation. I didn’t read all the replies so you may have said it, but especially if you’re into fitness (or not and just interested) you could always just say something like, “hey noticed you seem like you workout, I’m definitely trying to hit the gym more.” Or something like that. Just be honest, be nice, be friendly. Nothing crazy.

Jul 12, 2023 - edited Jul 12, 2023 - permalink

I'm just gonna chime in with three things:

1) A "trans man" is a woman who transitions into a man. It sounds like this person could be a trans woman, which is a man who transitions into a woman.

2) I've said this in other threads, but I believe that one of the biggest things holding guys back from meeting a muscular woman (or potentially any woman) is this idea of all or nothing.

You mentioned "wasting your time." But you also say that you see this person while strolling the neighborhood. So, that kind of implies that you probably have some time to talk.

In my experience, approaching any woman with the energy of "let's get to the point, either you're single and you're into me or I'm walking away" isn't very effective. You're loading yourself up with lots of expectations and unnecessary restrictions. They are perceptive enough to feel that, and it's a turn off.

So as other guys have said, why don't you just try talking to them. Like about your neighborhood and lifting and all that. If she isn't trans.. well.. maybe she's taken. Or a lesbian. Or just not into you. But even if any of those are true, maybe she's just a pleasant person to talk to.

IDK man, I spend 5 days a week in the gym and I regularly talk to all sorts of people that I'm not interested in sleeping with. It's not a big deal.

3) If you start talking to her about casual stuff, I'd be pretty sure that you'll be able to tell if she's a trans woman or a cis woman. And if you can't be sure after spending significant time, but you enjoy talking to her and you're attracted to her.. then hey, maybe you find out something new about yourself.

Jul 12, 2023 - permalink

It sounds like you are trying to put the horses before the cart. What makes you think she is interested in hooking up/dating you? It sounds like the most contact that she has given you is simply saying "hi." Have you made any effort to get to know her? See what she interested in and what kind of lifestyle that she has?

I don't know if this person is interested because I don't even know if this person is a cis-woman or not. And I think that needs to be clear first, hence why I was asking what's the best way to approach this matter tactfully. I thought I made that pretty clear in my post. Dude, I understand that you need to make an effort into getting to know a person before you get into the topic of whether or not they're interested in you. We calibrate our conversation and questions to arrive to the point where you can ask that question. But before I start to calibrate my questions, I need to know whether this person is worth pursuing in the first place.

Let me try to make this a little bit clearer. Here's an instagram of a local comedian who really caught my eye at first, for obvious reasons: https://www.instagram.com/kittypine/?hl=en

If I saw this individual in person without knowing a thing about her, I could do a number of things: I may or may not strike up a conversation, or maybe I'll ignore her, or maybe I'll be inspired to write this post. This person has muscles, not a bad looking face...definitely looks like a woman who works out hard. But if you keep scrolling, you'll realized she's a TS. Armed with this knowledge, I don't have the motivation to initialize contact with her if I see her, because I'm interested in cis-women and only cis-women. This is where I'm coming from.

Trust me, I'm not "fantasizing" about any imagined scenario. I understand the reality that you have to put in the effort first and find out. And if they're not interested, that's fine. But I want to know who this person is right off the bat. Before I delve into the topic of finding out if this person is interested me or not, I want to find tactful ways of finding out whether or not this individual is worthy of my time to pursue her by finding out if she's trans or not. That's all I'm asking.

I don't know if you're interested in guys, but if you're heterosexual, why would you pursue a man to date or hook up? Doesn't make sense, right? You're wasting your time and theirs. That's what I'm stressing here.

So...you're only interested in striking up a conversation with someone if you want to have sex with them?

A little unfair to put it this way. When it comes to dating and hooking up, yes. I do have platonic female friends. But generally speaking, if I'm not sexually interested in them, then most likely I won't pay attention to them. It goes both ways too -- I've had women ignore me, walk away, and straight up tell me "No" simply because they weren't interested in me. So why would you put in the effort to initialize contact if you're not interested in the woman you're pursuing? Like most people, I'm interested in women who interest me.

I'll reiterate: I'm not interested in guys or TS. I like women...specifically women with muscles. I know, what a surprise to find me here on a site called Girls with Muscle.

I'll tell you another story: my friend invited me to have dinner with his friend, a single woman. This girl wasn't unattractive, maybe cute in some ways, sort of plain, short, and smart. At one point, she even called me handsome. At the end of the dinner, my friend said she really liked me, and was genuinely shocked that this shy woman even complimented me like that.

I simply shrugged, and said "That's nice. Unfortunately I'm not interested." And that was the end of that.

So if you think I'm the kind of person that only wants to pursue a woman because she interests me on a sexual level, I can live with that. It is what it is. Millions of guys do as well, I'm sure.

And it goes without saying, but don't refer to a transgender person as "it." Regardless of whether you "agree" with it or not, calling another human being "it" is rude and offensive.

Yeah, that was an unintentional faux pas which I realized now. I kept starting to say "this person" and "him/her" (probably should have included "they" so as to not offend anyone) repeatedly. A genuinely honest mistake with no malicious intent behind it.

So I think I realize my error is in asking this very loaded question in this forum when it might be better served in r/transgender. The point of the post was to find the best way to approach this tactfully, not get into an entire discussions on trans rights.

Jul 12, 2023 - edited Jul 12, 2023 - permalink

^^ some fair points. Everyone is entitled to be into what they like, and not wanting to be sexual with a trans person doesn't make you transphobic.

I'm pansexual and I'm attracted to a ton of different people but I hate body hair. Absolutely can't stand it, won't tolerate it on a partner. Doesn't make me an anti-hair (anti-hirsute?) bigot. It's my preference.

Anyway... honestly you might be right about asking this question on Reddit. I wouldn't know how to approach asking "are you trans?" I don't know if there's a good way to do that. I think politely asking a trans woman "are you trans" isn't the worst thing. Trans women have nothing to be ashamed of. But if she's not... holy s**t she might really hate you. And any hope of getting with said cisgender woman could be dashed.

So yeah.... short of getting to know her better and figuring it out without a direct question, I kind of have no idea. You're entirely right about that comedian that you linked too... I doubt that anyone on this site would clock her as trans. She's honestly more feminine that probably 20% of the girls on here.

Jul 12, 2023 - permalink

I'm sure, because you obviously did not intend to offend anyone, that this is a honest mistake. But the way it commonly goes is that transwomen are persons who are biologically male but believe they're women. This linguistically implies that these biological males are a type of woman. Calling them transmen would do the opposite, saying in effect that they are "biological men who have transitioned into something" and relegating the fact that they believe they're women now into a private matter.

Yeah, this was a faux pas. Genuinely honest mistake.

What if you put the person aside and just hooked up with the muscles? I'm maybe joking a little. Not accusing you of anything. But trying to home in on what is important here. The sine qua non (the thing without which it wouldn't be what it is). What would you feel about the person if the muscles weren't there but the person was guaranteed to be a biological woman?

Great question. What can I say: I love muscular women, and that's why I'm on this site called Girls With Muscle. And quite honestly, I probably wouldn't even have given this person a second thought if they weren't muscular. But I am what I am, and I know what interests me.

To the question of why (do you need to know) there is an easy and obvious answer: Because it has a tendency to screw with people's minds. Easily and often. And it's an obvious example of gaslighting to blame a person for feeling uneasy about the confusion. The argument goes that you should be ashamed of trying to undermine them as a representative of their chosen gender, while they are totally shameless about undermining what you may consider important. In the end it's a war, no use pretending otherwise, and one side will undermine the other no matter what. Unless we find that one of the positions is parasitic upon the other or self-undermining, but let's not go into that now. Except that if such a position were to win, everyone would be screwed.

This is very eloquently put (as is the entirety of your reply). I think you bring up excellent points which provoke a thoughtful discussion, which I could not have put in a better way. I'm not quite sure I want to get into the gender debate at this time. There's a LOT for me to say regarding this matter. But I do agree with you.

It is a valid argument though that you're not entitled to know the biological gender of the checkout person in a grocery store. But it's different when it comes to personal relationships. The problem seems to be that you're in a limbo between these two. You would need to go forward to know, while you would like to know before going forward.

And probably everyone notices that when you don't know what the other person really is, this gives them an advantage and leaves you at a disadvantage. The other person obviously knows your gender and can make choices accordingly.

To cap this dilemma, my new favorite definition for obsession is to put more energy into something than is warranted by the facts and circumstances. The second one is an inability to limit the amount of effort. Not saying this applies to you, and you sound more like "would be nice to know" than "I'll die if I don't find out", but here too awareness is the key.

Again, very well put, and I think you understand the dilemma that is at the heart of my post. Some have chimed in saying that I have to talk to the person, or that I shouldn't think she's going to hook up with me. Let me be clear: No, that's not what I'm getting at. What I'm asking is a tactful way to determine whether this person is a cis-woman or not. Then I can talk to the person in the appropriate manner by properly calibrating my words and questions.

I appreciate the thoughtful manner you elucidated and articulated your response. You come across as a very intelligent individual, and I respect that. Thank you.

fp909
Jul 12, 2023 - permalink

i do get the sentiment of "not wanting to waste anyone's time" but that really only starts if you get past the pole. And even in just meeting you can probably read the room and see if there's anything worth moving forward with. recently i'm just talking to women just to talk to them, no ulterior motive. although it's a hell of a lot easier to talk to women if you're not going in with that all in mentality.

Jul 12, 2023 - permalink

i do get the sentiment of "not wanting to waste anyone's time" but that really only starts if you get past the pole. And even in just meeting you can probably read the room and see if there's anything worth moving forward with. recently i'm just talking to women just to talk to them, no ulterior motive. although it's a hell of a lot easier to talk to women if you're not going in with that all in mentality.

That's what I'm talking about. This isn't directed at OP, but I just want to write it as a PSA for you guys reading...

I train at Golds Gym in Venice Beach and it might be the single biggest concentration of insanely hot and fit women in one place.

Lots of them have boyfriends. Quite a lot are LGBT and not necessarily into men. Most are working hard, many are caught up in their phones and shooting IG. It's not the easiest thing to approach them.

The guys who are successful are just friendly and easygoing. They go up and chat a little bit. They don't crowd them. If they make a little connection one day, then it's easier to talk the next day. It's not all "I'M GONNA SHOOT MY SHOT!!" and a lot of pressure and build up. I've learned their technique and.. although I'm not the best... believe me that I do pretty well. Things worked so much better when I changed my mindset to just enjoying the conversation, and not taking it personally if it doesn't work.

Jul 12, 2023 - permalink

Yeah I definitely would just start talking to this person, get to know them. I mean either you have a muscular woman that could be interested in you cuz you’re a nice guy. Or you have a trans man that you become friends with and that’s it. I feel like there’s no real negatives to just being nice and striking up a conversation. I didn’t read all the replies so you may have said it, but especially if you’re into fitness (or not and just interested) you could always just say something like, “hey noticed you seem like you workout, I’m definitely trying to hit the gym more.” Or something like that. Just be honest, be nice, be friendly. Nothing crazy.

I like this sound advice, thanks for chiming in. The small talk approach is probably best. I'll eventually find out one way or another. And you're right: even I'm surprised I didn't even drop the whole "You seem like you workout" line yet.

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