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No roids would be great. But that's not realistic. I passed by a post with a graph that was a good representation. But I have observed that time should be added to that graph. A woman will typically start with an eating disorder and super skinny. She starts lifting, people help her and get her stuff and she gets jacked fast. A woman can get real close to her biggest and then shreds it all out and has gotten prettier. She has maybe a year and then the juice, the lifting, the sun, and the time start taking a terrible toll. But in that one special year she is supreme.
So until there is some sort of CRISPR treatment that hypertrophizes a lady's muscle without giving her the man jaw, deep voice, etc. (thus giving us the long sought after "Tetsuko in real life") there are levels of PED side effects I'll have to accept when thirsting up muscle babes.
Some people actually are born with mysotatin deficiency. Remember baby/toddler with huge muscles. One of the babies mom has one of the genes but her son has 2 different mutation. but in the scientific paper mentions she appeared muscular but not excessively. Maybe someday science figure out a way to surpress mysostation safely. I think they are trying to achieve this already for fighting with muscle degenerating illnesses.
As I've mentioned elsewhere, Ana Leonova's face, for instance, is really starting to puff up. But for me, the question is whether it's roids or simply getting older.
Melissa Brodsky too, she's in her early to mid 20s and her face is completely puffy even when lean.
I find it interesting that feminity is such a subjective thing.
It actually isn't. Not even on a biological level. Certain features in an average woman cause a certain type of reaction in an average man. I would not go as far as to say that muscles are always masculine, because a fit woman does not necessarily look like a man. But muscles by themselves are definitely not feminine.
If looking at a body causes a surge of stress hormones, such as adrenaline and cortisol, then it technically isn't a sexual arousal. Many masochists for example feel first and foremost this kind of arousal and only secondarily a sexual one. Feminine by definition is what causes a purely sexual arousal.
It actually isn't. Not even on a biological level. Certain features in an average woman cause a certain type of reaction in an average man. I would not go as far as to say that muscles are always masculine, because a fit woman does not necessarily look like a man. But muscles by themselves are definitely not feminine.
If looking at a body causes a surge of stress hormones, such as adrenaline and cortisol, then it technically isn't a sexual arousal. Many masochists for example feel first and foremost this kind of arousal and only secondarily a sexual one. Feminine by definition is what causes a purely sexual arousal.
I think you're just nitpicking at semantics at this point.
Are not all muscles on biological females feminine by definition? You could argue that deep voices and body hair are 'masculine traits' and I would somewhat agree but there is still a subjective range of tolerance. How deep a voice? How much hair? Many women have natural deep voices and natural hair, are those not femninine?
I'll use Emily Schubert as an example. I think everything thing about her is feminine/female. That's my subjective opinion. Her body is in no way masculine.
You can get out your psychology textbook and try to explain to me how wrong I am but I'm not going to change my mind.
I think you're just nitpicking at semantics at this point.
This is the complete opposite of what I am doing. I am trying to find ways in which these words could correspond with physical reality.
Are not all muscles on biological females feminine by definition?
No. Being part of a female or male body does not make a thing feminine or masculine in itself. Having a nose is not a feminine nor a masculine trait. But neither is having a nose on a female body a feminine trait. This would make the whole idea of a trait meaningless.
That's my subjective opinion.
That's exactly what I am not interested in. You are effectively just repeating your previous statement, the one I quoted. That femininity is a subjective thing is in itself a subjective claim. Denying that one's thoughts can correspond to reality does not make it impossible or cause the reality to go away. The fact that you reject the idea that anything can be said for sure does not make it impossible for anyone else.
Once a person has a certain amount of muscle it becomes more probable that we're talking about a male than a female. By saying that muscles are a masculine trait you can basically mean three different things. If you can think of a fourth one then feel free, even welcome to tell everyone. First one is this matter of probability. Second one is a matter of direction. The more you add muscle, all else being equal, the more probably you're talking about a man than a woman. The third one is that there is some limit beyond which the person is necessarily male. Talking about Renné Toney plus something.
I may leave Cincinnati on foot for Cleveland and tell everyone that I am going there. Every step brings me closer, even if I eventually quit after a few miles. Then at some point I am closer to Cleveland than to Cincinnati. And finally I might enter at some point the city limits of Cleveland.
It is one thing to say that muscles are a game for boys and then think that these girls are beating a lot of boys in their game. Then it is a different thing to say how cool, how exciting, that's interesting, that's sad, that's wrong, I wish they didn't or whatever.
In other words, muscles are a thing boys on average will always do more and do better than girls and there's no implied attitude or emotional reaction. But if reality is denied then it logically follows that every statement is an expression of a feeling or an attitude. That is, you can't say "thing is" without saying "thing should be" or "thing shouldn't be" and when you try to say "thing is", you're always on the hook for saying it should or shouldn't be.
When I look at Karly (wildchook) or Lea Kannowsky I think neither "awwww, their muscles are so feminine" nor that "yuck, those bulging things on their arms are so manly". They're both cute and feminine girls who then happen to have muscles on top of that and it's exactly this contrast that is exciting and interesting. When it comes to Emily Schubert, I would consider her female, obviously a woman, but not particularly feminine without the muscles and I definitely think that the muscles have not added to her femininity. She may still be a very fun and interesting person to be around.
What I find interesting but heavily disagree with is the idea that you could "gift" femininity to someone by your words. Talk is cheap, especially when it does not need to correspond with reality. But it's also a way to make friends by advertising that one is ready and willing to bend facts in their favor.
They're both cute and feminine girls
Your subjective opinion, you're not wrong.
I know guys who would look at Lea and consider her manly. We all have a different threshold. Simple concept, that's all I was saying from the start.
Not trying to start a gender debate.
What I find interesting but heavily disagree with is the idea that you could "gift" femininity to someone by your words.
Yet it's ok for you to do it apparently.
Anyway this is a circular conversation now. (I think.. honestly most of what you wrote either has no relevance or makes no sense.)
Sorry everyone for the derailment.
Your subjective opinion, you're not wrong.
I know guys who would look at Lea and consider her manly. We all have a different threshold. Simple concept, that's all I was saying from the start.
Not trying to start a gender debate.
Yet it's ok for you to do it apparently.
Anyway this is a circular conversation now. (I think.. honestly most of what you wrote either has no relevance or makes no sense.)
Sorry everyone for the derailment.
Apology accepted. 😂
Did I understand correctly that it turns out technically attraction to muscular women can be described in this way. There are separate categories of "femininity" and "muscularity". At the same time, both are completely non-abstract, "femininity" is absolutely certain features individually or in combination. Like "muscular", it's a very specific image with very specific cultural connotations.
Muscular = healthy. Muscular = strong. Muscular = able to stand up for himself.
And of course Muscular = man, but here those who like muscular women, there is a decrease in the significance of this association.
In terms of neural networks, for us, specific but individual for each markers of femininity have a very large weight, positive OUTSIDE sex markers of "muscularity" have a very large weight, but the marker "muscular = male" is so weakened that it is ignored. We simply do not see it.
Actually, the whole conflict - "I like muscular women = gay", comes from the side in which this marker, on the contrary, dominates.
For them, muscular is really only a man, even if it is a woman.
5% less attractive?? How the heck did you come up with that scale or is that a derivative branch of thought of schmoe logic?
Slightly less attractive? Is that better? 🙄
What I find interesting but heavily disagree with is the idea that you could "gift" femininity to someone by your words.
Yet it's ok for you to do it apparently.
I never did that.
You could decide whether femininity is subjective, that is, anyone can call or consider anything feminine, or if it is real but there is a threshold in perception. I thought you almost agreed with the latter instead of the former, but then this accusation here comes out of nowhere and is based on willfully misunderstanding the point I was making. There's nothing circular in passive aggressiveness. I am not chasing you.
Sorry everyone for the derailment.
I am not apologizing. This issue is perfectly on topic.
You remove the muscles from Lea or Karly and you have perfectly girly girls. If they are then not feminine in their appearance then feminine does not exist anywhere. You remove the muscles from many women on this site and you have all kinds of jaws, bellies, acnes, veins, mustaches and clits still left that are not feminine. Which, if it exists as a thing at all, is what is considered physically attractive in a female by the average in men. This also means that femininity by itself is an average, not an extreme or an opposite.
Gatsby28:
Zarkle, based on your post history, may I direct you to r/iamverysmart ?
I think here are many, many other people on this site who insist on living inside their heads far more than I do. I think this has been the point I've been making all along in almost too many places that you don't get to mentally create your own reality. If it is a mental creation then it's not reality and vice versa.
A wooden stick may be objectively longer or shorter and it will vary whether people perceive it as long or short but no sane person would say that you are free to imagine it to be as long or as short as you wish.
lastbruja (did not see your message when I was writing the above):
There are separate categories of "femininity" and "muscularity". At the same time, both are completely non-abstract, "femininity" is absolutely certain features individually or in combination. Like "muscular", it's a very specific image with very specific cultural connotations.
I applaud this explanation. Except that muscular can also be understood as absolute mass or mass in proportion to body weight or body size and additionally visibility vis-à-vis fat.
I don't mind the idea that nearly all the women on this site use PEDs. Obviously, it can have adverse effects and make someone less attractive, but that's their business.
It only starts to bother me when I ponder making the fantasy of being with an exceptionally muscular woman into a reality -- I don't think I'd want to be in a relationship with someone who was using PEDs. But, there are plenty of other reasons I probably wouldn't want a relationship with the type of woman on this site, including how obsessed with fitness and body image they are, how focused on social media and approval of others many are, not to mention how very few of them are likely to be into me, for plenty of reasons! So in the end the PEDs are only a minor speed bump on that fantasy road...
I don't mind the idea that nearly all the women on this site use PEDs. Obviously, it can have adverse effects and make someone less attractive, but that's their business.
It only starts to bother me when I ponder making the fantasy of being with an exceptionally muscular woman into a reality -- I don't think I'd want to be in a relationship with someone who was using PEDs. But, there are plenty of other reasons I probably wouldn't want a relationship with the type of woman on this site, including how obsessed with fitness and body image they are, how focused on social media and approval of others many are, not to mention how very few of them are likely to be into me, for plenty of reasons! So in the end the PEDs are only a minor speed bump on that fantasy road...
Most sensible answer in this whole thread! While I would certainly treasure a one night stand with one of these women, I don't think I could handle the pressures of a long-term relationship with one.
I don't mind the idea that nearly all the women on this site use PEDs. Obviously, it can have adverse effects and make someone less attractive, but that's their business.
It only starts to bother me when I ponder making the fantasy of being with an exceptionally muscular woman into a reality -- I don't think I'd want to be in a relationship with someone who was using PEDs. But, there are plenty of other reasons I probably wouldn't want a relationship with the type of woman on this site, including how obsessed with fitness and body image they are, how focused on social media and approval of others many are, not to mention how very few of them are likely to be into me, for plenty of reasons! So in the end the PEDs are only a minor speed bump on that fantasy road...
It would be hard on me to know that someone I really cared about was doing things that could seriously damage their health. To alter Billy Crystal's line in When Harry Met Sally, when you've decided that you want to spend the rest of your life with someone, you want the rest of both your lives to last as long as possible.
A little late to the party.
This is another one of the usual threads that a bunch of fetishists, schmoes and semi normal dudes try to make sense of women's PED use.
Never going to happen in a million threads. Pointless discussion.
Do you want to make some sense out of it? Entitled to an opinion will only be men who have at least 6 months of hard gym training and nutrition. No steroids needed.
Only then you are allowed to post in similar topics.
A little late to the party.
This is another one of the usual threads that a bunch of fetishists, schmoes and semi normal dudes try to make sense of women's PED use.
Never going to happen in a million threads. Pointless discussion.
Do you want to make some sense out of it? Entitled to an opinion will only be men who have at least 6 months of hard gym training and nutrition. No steroids needed.
Only then you are allowed to post in similar topics.
This comment says more about you than it does anyone else. We aren't trying to "make sense" of women's PED use. Read the title of the thread. It's about personal (individual) preferences vis-a-vis PED use. You don't determine what we're "allowed" to do. Thanks for trying.
It+s somehow indeed a question that easily drifts off into phantasy, hm? I love the thought of ladies that could possibly overpower me (and I'm a gorilla). Powerhouses like Danni Speegle come to my mind. She's still having a nice voice (not deeper than mine) but emits that power that I cherish. I admire ladies like Valentina Mishina, too, but ... yea... like someone said above: Her voice would dig into my mind and tell me: she did too much to her body.
SO, it's damn hard to tell, like: Sure, use a bit of drugs but stay feminine in voice and face and don't harm yourself? If that's not possible I really would prefer a natural strength, because somehow I prefer healthy people over fantasy.