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Another thread for "naive" schmoes and simps. People don't want to face reality no matter how many times they are being told about it.
The vast majority, like 99,99% of women who practice this dead end sport, do it for the male attention. Not any male's attention but for the "high value" man with a built physique.
A schmoe respectfully asks for a photo and you can see the cringe on their faces even from before he asks. The exact next minute the same women can be seen posing with sleeves up, butt sticking next to the crotch of a male BB that asked for the same photo.
A fetish sport that has the competitors barely dressed in thongs, stripper heels, full on make up, moving like strippers, having been butt naked in front of a stranger with a spray gun.
Athletes that post hundreds of T&A videos on their socials and join OnlyFans by the dozen it is self explanatory that they DO know what they sell.
Other posters may not like your tone, but I have to admit you are mostly right from my own anecdotal experience.
The men and women I've met who are heavily into muscle and aesthetics as a lifestyle were absolute attention whores who had little regard for anything other than how many people were watching them. Narcissism up the wazoo, you can't even be friends with some of them (guys as well as girls). This may be a generational thing as I am a millenial. Perhaps those of you who are Gen Xers or older may differ with me on this. But all the social media attention makes certain folks insufferable in the real world.
The ones who don't care about the attention are the ones who are wearing regular gym clothes--no short shorts, stringers, etc.--and the only thing you notice about them is how their outfits fit them more snugly.
On the female side, it's a fetish that is a niche of a niche. Outside of sites like this, men with sthenolagnia to this extreme aren't exactly considered normal.
I don't understand the confusion here. Ask bodybuilders why they train and you're going to get the same answer.
There is no confusion. To say they're doing it for themselves does not mean anything if you have no idea what exactly is the self they're doing it for. The human self is not some divinely simple thing that just exists in everyone. Because the moment you try to know this self you must borrow stuff from outside of it. So you might as easily conclude that the self is the sum total of this borrowed stuff.
And to love or desire this self you always desire the borrowed stuff, instead of some indivisible spark within.
Again I could name four distinct possibilities: their body, that is, purely for health and well-being. Or some real social role or personality. Not sure what that would mean. Or a fake social role or personality. This includes everything that's done to impress strangers. Or purely for their own enjoyment, without being ever interested in letting anyone know about it.
People may want to be healthy for their own sake. People may want to be strong to be better able to do some physical task. But bodybuilding is about trying to achieve a certain appearance. You can be stronger and healthier without that appearance. And appearances rarely if ever exist purely for the benefit of the person appearing.
What is the real thing it enables them to do? That's the answer to the question of why they are doing it. There is no bodybuilding purely for the sake of bodybuilding. As little as there is penis enlargement for absolutely celibate asexuals. Bodybuilding, just like penis enlargement, is not built into the fabric of the universe. It is a means to an end.
Calling these women goddesses maybe isn't just a word that gets thrown around. Some people in some dim way seem to believe that they're at least in part the reason why everything else exists. I think that's insane, but at least there's an accidental logic to it.
> The vast majority, like 99,99% of women who practice this dead end sport, do it for the male attention. Not any male's attention but for the "high value" man with a built physique. >
Nice stat. Unfortunately, you are 100% talking out of your ass.
100% of all bodybuilders I have met female/male online/irl (and I have met a LOT) do not train for anyones attention. We train for OURSELVES
You would understand this if you had any experience in fitness (or even mildly active living for christ sakes)
Exactly.
Some of you really need to get some experience in fitness. I’m not a bodybuilder, but I do my chosen sport (CrossFit) because I love doing it. I’ll never be a Games athlete, or even elite level, but that doesn’t matter. And I’m also around powerlifters and bodybuilders, and they ALL do it because they love doing it. Do I like it when people compliment my physique or my strength? Of course. But I don’t do it for them. I do it for me.
Implying that women do it for men’s attention is really a shit way to think (plus, there are many female bodybuilders who are only attracted to women.) This is some red pill, and at times incel, bullshit. There is a reason why schmoes have a poor reputation, and it has nothing to do with the way they look.
hedgeborn said:
> That almost sounds a little creepy and incel-ish. Like you think these women owe schmoes something.
This is probably because Ovi33 said:
> A schmoe respectfully asks...
Or a schmoe timidly asks. What he probably wanted to emphasize is the contrast. That the reaction is not because the schmoe is not nice and polite but because the schmoe is a schmoe, that is the wrong guy.
The other interpretation is of course that if you are polite, then people will owe you politeness in return, no matter how dumb your business.
But I think his point was that they do it for the attention of some guys, not all guys.
> Sounds like the same sort of attitude incels have, like women who dress in skimpy clothes deserve to be raped or owe them sex or something.
Women who dress in skimpy clothes tend to make both desirable and undesirable guys horny. Of these undesirables there are pathetic whiners who could not rape anyone even if their life depended on it. They live in constant shame, so shaming them is like kicking a dog when it's already down. But there are also violent and antisocial types who simply don't care.
Skimpy clothes are also provocative clothes, because the very purpose of the designer or the wearer is to draw attention and cause reactions. I don't think any woman is stupid enough to not know this. Even little girls get the idea, often entirely on their own.
Every user of this site probably gets it too. Otherwise we would have lots of pictures with women wearing loose-fitting clothes that reach the ankles and elbows and cover the pit of the throat, with no skin visible in between.
To talk about "deserving" is inflammatory and intentionally derails the discussion so that stating the obvious becomes too difficult. Or shameful. As if the involuntary celibate was morally entitled to punish the woman for her clothing. But since this is the Internet and we are not face to face, I could do it anyway.
You don't need to give women the right to make pathetic guys horny without repercussions. The guys already take care of that. But nobody is able to do the same with respect to nasty guys. Also, people are free to choose their actions but not the consequences of said actions. Awareness of potential consequences should alter their choice of actions.
If I willingly, not accidentally leave my door unlocked in a bad neighborhood, do I "deserve" to have my stuff taken? Someone might say legally no, morally yes. I might get away with it a few times or have a few close calls. I might even fool myself to desire the act but not the consequence and insist that I have a right to be unaware and feel protected and insist even more that the thief is wrong.
Then if anyone tried to point out my foolishness I would simply ask if he thinks theft is good. It is entirely possible to have two foolish or imprudent or immoral actions happen consequently where nothing justifies anything but one action may still help or enable the other.
Of course being a prude is no guarantee against rape. Probably nothing is. But there is no cause and effect from wearing Sunday clothes of Victorian times to making someone incredibly horny. In general you would never choose to do one to cause the other unless you knew someone who is particularly and paradoxically turned on by strict modesty. But in general a woman would and could wear skimpy clothes to make someone horny.
> I'm pretty sure 99% of these women work out for THEMSELVES.
My favorite metaphysical pet peeve right here. The moment they want anyone else to pay attention to their physique is the moment they stop doing it for themselves.
The motivations of vast majority of women, "these women" in bodybuilding events and competitions directly involve other persons. Being known and seen as a bodybuilder, for example. But maybe the vast majority of women, "the women" who work out or go to gym do it to improve their health.
The only metaphysically valid way to do it for the self is to do it for health. But the "self" an average person would think you are referring to is an imaginary one. It simply does not exist as a thing in reality, independent of the person continuously willing it into existence. It's a created, not a discovered thing.
It could rather be said that they don't do it for a preexisting "self" but to create and maintain a "self".
Also some go to gym to become more sexually attractive and have a better sex life. Now it is a matter of interpretation if this is done for a "self" or for a partner or for a potential group of ever-changing partners.
Thinking this through I thought maybe this is all a never-ending mating ritual.
Also maybe the real question is which part of this isn't vanity? Goes directly to the topic anyway.
I'm not sure I see what your point was, if you had one.
Of course provocative clothing is going to attract the attention of all straight men and women who get attention for it and then wonder why or get angry about it are being a kind of silly. That said, women who dress provocatively or post videos of themselves working out on TikTok don't "deserve" smarmy dudes sweating them to send their pics "for promotion" or weirdos demanding they take a pic with them after a bodybuilding competition or anything else. Though I am also one of those people who doesn't think a celebrity owes you an autograph or even 30 seconds of their time when they are out in public just living their lives and not doing a press junket or a fan meet and greet or something.
I'm a big believer in leaving people the fuck alone. Women. Men. Whatever. Just because someone posts pics of themselves online doesn't mean they deserve any less respect from me. Would they be silly for wondering why their privacy is invaded? Yes. But not as silly as the asshole who is invading it. I guess I get particularly angry about this issue because I hate the idea that the worst of us are representing ALL of us (female muscle aficionados). Meaning, socially inept "schmoes" and the "bobs and vagene" guys from countries where almost no young man knows how to treat women with respect. Just tired of seeing girls treated poorly, not to mention scared off of these platforms or going private because of all the creeps. I wish we could all do better as a group.
People may want to be healthy for their own sake. People may want to be strong to be better able to do some physical task. But bodybuilding is about trying to achieve a certain appearance. You can be stronger and healthier without that appearance. And appearances rarely if ever exist purely for the benefit of the person appearing.
You're seriously going to lecture us about what bodybuilding is? Do you train at all? Have you ever set any fitness goal, worked at it, and achieved it? (it's amazing btw I reccommend trying it)
Sorry I don't mean to be combative or rude but it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about.
I stirred up some bad feelings. Let me clarify that my post was meant towards schmoes and their mentality.
I did track and field in high school, I did sports my whole life, during university I lifted seriously and worked at a commercial gym. Later on I partly owned and operated a gym and we sponsored several local BB competitions and competitors. I am no longer in the industry never used roids but I was big enough for people to think I might.
This is my background and because of that I stand 100% behind of what I wrote. The people who compete with the great physiques and PEDs know and understand that sex is a huge part of the sport. I am not talking about the casual trainer. They like this and feed into it, even more now in the Instagram era. This goes for male and females. I wrote before that the fitness and sex industries are merging.
I don't understand why people are getting upset about that reality. BBing is as much as a sport as a beauty pageant. Sexual energy is always present in competitions. You can spot the gays orbiting the males, you can see the schmoes zooming on biceps, you see young dudes drooling near the bikini babes, you can hear the spectators commenting sexually on athletes onstage. Many times I witnessed hookups between competitors, never with a schmoe or orbiter.
Nothing I wrote is false and I do not contemn the current state of BB, it is what it is. I was part of it and I thoroughly enjoyed it.
PS This video just came up in the High Score section. You tell me she would be offended if you told her she trains to attract male attention?
You're seriously going to lecture us about what bodybuilding is?
That wasn't what I was trying to do. I took the claim that they're purely training for themselves and then tried to come up with scenarios where this would be strictly true.
There are many "conversion stories" among female bodybuilders, in which an anorectic, fat or depressed girl or young woman hits the weights and becomes an entirely different person. She dumps her nerdy or abusive boyfriend and starts hanging out with cool guys.
In reality she has become a different person, because personality is not defined as some inner core but as her capacity to relate. Here what she really does in her newfound relationships is the real new personality. But if at the same time she imagines that she has an inner core or hidden personality that is somehow entitled to even more, then that's fake.
The relevant thing is that neither one of these bring any consolation or comfort to the average schmoe. Both her real and fake personalities, regardless of the balance of power between them, are strictly aiming elsewhere.
I think this discussion is a mishmash of a few themes and trains of thought. If I were to name and separate these, I'd first have that there is no comfort for schmoes. Even the nicest and most humble bodybuilders are not required to like them (or "us" or me) and can still be good and acceptable persons.
The second one is that in human personality there are real and fake parts. The fake parts are those that depend solely on willpower and imagination. The real parts are those that operate in outside reality. The third one is that sex and sexuality has a lot to do with it. Not only muscle and fitness sports but almost all sports. It's far from limited to schmoes versus female bodybuilders.
The fourth one, which I think I have failed to acknowledge, is that in every hobby, sport or obsession there is also a private sphere. Here someone might think that physical skills are somehow more real than artisanal skills or skill in some computer game or board game. There are skills and hobbies that don't give you anything useful outside that particular activity. Then there are those that do. Then many of them can help a person become more focused and determined, though obsessed is not the same thing.
A person who is focused or determined knows what he is doing and to what end. An obsessed person does not care about the why but only about more. Throughout my life I've rarely if ever been focused or determined but I've always been obsessive, though never with any physical activity. But logically there is no point in being good at one's obsession if the only benefit is the capability to obsess even more.
I am opposed to the idea that bodybuilding, martial arts or strength sports could be considered an instance of some kind of heroic individuality. I think there is a useful part (better focus, better health, different friends, better sex) that is not strictly individualistic and a useless, obsessive part that is.
The people who compete with the great physiques and PEDs know and understand that sex is a huge part of the sport. I am not talking about the casual trainer. They like this and feed into it, even more now in the Instagram era. This goes for male and females. I wrote before that the fitness and sex industries are merging.
I don't understand why people are getting upset about that reality. BBing is as much as a sport as a beauty pageant. Sexual energy is always present in competitions. You can spot the gays orbiting the males, you can see the schmoes zooming on biceps, you see young dudes drooling near the bikini babes, you can hear the spectators commenting sexually on athletes onstage. Many times I witnessed hookups between competitors, never with a schmoe or orbiter.
Would you say many Bodybuilding shows even WOS/NPC are like this? Always thought most of the people competing in these shows married, have kids and it's more like a family social event.
What has been your experience with the bigger, older fbbs who are built like Helle Trevino, Eva Montgomery, Monique Jones? Get the sense the older ladies tend to be more professional, less adept with technology and more about helping others.
ok, this is purely my opinion as a fan, schmoe, and generally level-headed person. i've rewritten this a few times in my head.
If you are participating in bodybuilding--which I would consider, like many sports, a show me sport, but the only one based on aesthetics--and doing any of the following you are taking advantage of the gaze of other people, whether you are male or female. These are including, but not limited to:
you open an OF account or are in a similar way profiting off your physique that doesn't have anything to do with your end goal of competition.
you post frequently on social media about anything related to your physique
related to the above, you are posting nudes or underwear photos and covering bulges or naughty bits and calling it a day and then telling people to get their minds out of the gutter. just don't post the pic! or put some clothes on!
I realize this is a vast, sweeping generalization but there are also certainly examples of people that are sucessful and not doing those things.
I also want to include people who leverage a large following to build a training business, but would make the distinction between those that hit big numbers because they were posting thirst traps all the time (your average fitfluencer) vs those that documented more of the work alongside the results (someone like Michaela Aycock who, to my knowledge, has never done a video shoot, or made a dollar publicly off of dudes like us paying to see her physique). Why I make this distinction: Michaela and those like her continue to post the same stuff they always do and don't see a significant drop of engagement, while the thirst-trap base usually see a drop in followers or engagement once they pivot away from one kind of content to trying to sell training or nutrition services.
Nor do I think this is limited to bodybuilding, it's just that it's extra obvious in bodybuilding. People overshare everything. Anything is content now. We got normal Joe's and Janes with 500 followers posting 75 stories on IG about their trip to Ibiza. We got random college kids on instagram doing trends with the mantra "Keep posting consistently, eventually one or two will blow up and your following will grow" and posting once or twice a day. And on the flip side the consumer base gets bored now if content doesn't move forward with trends or gets stale in general. When I was a mod this is why I railed somewhat regarding posting photos that were essential identical--there are some usual suspects who post the same pose to their profiles every day it seems.
Anyway, that's my two cents as an observer and sometimes-participant. As someone who has dove into many a DM to ask for private vids or pics there is almost always a price. For many I'm not the first that has asked. Sometimes they get it, sometimes they don't understand, or dislike it entirely, or just look at it as free money but OFTEN, even if I'm rejected, they will at some point realize they can monetize their physique and use it for a window.
Do they know? Yes. Do they care? No.
Do they appreciate? Well I would put it this way: there can be 70k fans drooling over their kneecap and they get the mental ignore, but have one with a critical comment and the diva freaks out. As a long term follower of the fbb scene and being in touch with the bodybuilding comnunity myself for years (though not being on stage myself) I have to say with a heavy heart: apart from very few exceptions: no, they dont appreciate.
There are a few women, who are friendly by nature, and they act courteous. Then there is that group that uses attention to boost their own ego or overcome insecurities - like it is some sort of competition. The majority just does not give a f***: yeah fans are there, its good for a jokeful comment, useful when it comes to finance the own preps.
"Do they know ? Do they realize the effect they have on "us" ?"
I definately cant't speak for all muscular women, but here is how a former girlfriend of mine was.
I met her at a friend's house. She was in her fifties, average height and about 60 kg. Her calves drew my attention, diamond shaped and strong looking (later measured at 38cm). They were similar to Grorialegs' at this site
. Later I found out that her body was all muscle, visible abs and good biceps. Interestingly, she had never done any strength trainig. It was all genetics. She was also strong af, could overhead press half her bodyweight for reps. She could also lift me (85kg) in any way but overhead.
She hated her calves, and said they looked like tree trunks. The funny thing is that she was puzzled by the attention they got when wearing a short skirt, stating "my legs seem to take on a life of their own when I wear a skirt".
One time we were fooling around in bed, I pinned her. Struggling to get free, a significant bicep popped up at her right arm. This made her burst out in amazement "wow, look at my muscle!"
Great question posed photos like this I would say YES she knows and glad she does ! Most BB in my opinion of both sexes love the attention. The few I’ve known have. Just my opinion.
end85 wrote:
Most BB in my opinion of both sexes love the attention.
I think they love the power (they have over you socially). Also the power to get the attention, not the attention itself. When they are satisfied that they (still) have that power, they may easily discard the actual attention.
chilleus wrote:
but have one with a critical comment and the diva freaks out.
This is because the critical comment challenged the (social) power.
(Added soon:)
To ponder this entire question a little, a person who has a steady income is not as scared of spending money he already has, because he knows more is on the way. Only the person who is unsure of his income feels he must count every penny.
It works the same way with drugs and alcohol. There are people who know they can get as much as they want and then there are people who are always occupied with finding at least some.
Maybe the average schmoe only knows the desire for attention and can't even dream of possessing a power for attention at will. This may lead him to believe that giving attention to someone on Instagram is a trade or an equal transaction. He acknowledges the woman's awesomeness and the woman acknowledges him as one of her loyal puppies. Reality is more like he is the crop and she is a harvester.
It's like a schmoe could not make up his mind between two fantasies.
I agree they certainly have the power over me. Simple fact to wake up any day and do a photo shoot with all kinds of sexy poses well they know !
end85 wrote:
I think they love the power (they have over you socially). Also the power to get the attention, not the attention itself. When they are satisfied that they (still) have that power, they may easily discard the actual attention.
chilleus wrote:
This is because the critical comment challenged the (social) power.
One thing that is even weird to think abgout is that compliments might be conceived as counterproductive. For the competitive bb beauty is not about what they are, more about what they become. Every day is a struggle for that tiny bit of improvement: painful exercise, posing practise, at home its either cooking or eating, sleeping is about restoring damaged muscle fibres, and the remaining time is often spent in front of the mirror checking for flaws.
If somebody calls a female bodybuilder a "goddess" or a "queen" it suggests she is already finished, perfect so to say, which means in return that there is nothing more to work on. In my experience compliments often get a harsh reality check: "I still need to work on my balance, too much water stored .... ". Some sort of calculated pessismism. Yes they all know at some point about the effect, but mostly they dont let it get to them.
One thing that is even weird to think abgout is that compliments might be conceived as counterproductive. For the competitive bb beauty is not about what they are, more about what they become. Every day is a struggle for that tiny bit of improvement: painful exercise, posing practise, at home its either cooking or eating, sleeping is about restoring damaged muscle fibres, and the remaining time is often spent in front of the mirror checking for flaws.
If somebody calls a female bodybuilder a "goddess" or a "queen" it suggests she is already finished, perfect so to say, which means in return that there is nothing more to work on. In my experience compliments often get a harsh reality check: "I still need to work on my balance, too much water stored .... ". Some sort of calculated pessismism. Yes they all know at some point about the effect, but mostly they dont let it get to them.
Some good points here.
Calling anyone a goddess is just awkward as hell imo, I mean imagine yourself on the receiving end of that. In my experience treating female bodybuilders like normal humans will get you the best results. They're not gods.
I've had the good fortune of meeting, befriending, and working out alongside quite a few FBB's and female powerlifters in my time. Here's my take:
1) Yes, they know that certain men find them very attractive due to their muscles and strength
2) They lament the fact that the majority does not. Their demanding and borderline obsessive lifestyle is a major impediment to relationships too.
3) WE find muscles on girls extremely attractive. The majority of people simply don't care or actively dislike it. If you want attention as a woman, it's WAY better and easier to get DD implants than it is to build 16" biceps. Hence...
4) They do it for themselves. They do it because they want to be strong, and they want big muscles. They might have varied reasons for this, but I promise you that appealing to a small subset of the male population is not one of the top 10.
5) Bodybuilding is expensive and the direct financial rewards are low. Especially for women. So if onlyfans is good money, why not do it? Women selling their image and their sexuality is nothing new, and usually is just a financial calcuation.. not some ego-driven mania for worship and approval.
If somebody calls a female bodybuilder a "goddess" or a "queen" it suggests she is already finished, perfect so to say, which means in return that there is nothing more to work on. In my experience compliments often get a harsh reality check: "I still need to work on my balance, too much water stored .... ". Some sort of calculated pessismism. Yes they all know at some point about the effect, but mostly they dont let it get to them.
This is why I compliment them with "getting bigger!" or "great progress!" or "get those gainzzz!" If they respond with a self-critique I say something like "Well, you'll nail that too, I just know it." Nothing flatters an fbb like hearing their hard work is paying off and they are moving toward their goals.
5) Bodybuilding is expensive and the direct financial rewards are low. Especially for women. So if onlyfans is good money, why not do it? Women selling their image and their sexuality is nothing new, and usually is just a financial calcuation.. not some ego-driven mania for worship and approval.
sex sells in commercials, at work, attracting the "right partner". Especially in ads it used so implicit and sneaky that it is hardly noticed at a conscious level: the mouth half open with red lipstick, the lady placed a bit underneath the man. That instinctively triggers emotional reactions. And if you think through the concept behind it, it is either some form of sexism or cheap profiling: the women are pictured as inferior, always perfect, and always willing. On the other hand, selling a "trained body" is probably the most honorable of all "sex sells" activities, as there is a lot of hard work and dedication behind it. It is the picture of a woman who is strong, independent, and striving for beauty from within. So I consider those fotoshootings and OF accounts as good business (excluding porn).
Some good points here.
Calling anyone a goddess is just awkward as hell imo, I mean imagine yourself on the receiving end of that. In my experience treating female bodybuilders like normal humans will get you the best results. They're not gods.
Exactly. An old friend is fotografer of bodybuilding events, mostly women, die hard fan too. He is always polite to the ladies, shows interest in their business, respects their privacy. ONly when the time is right he suddenly comes forward admiring them: he makes it personal, settled, and does not excpect anything in return. And you know what? The athletes love to be around him. I wish I would draw that much attention at contests.
This is why I compliment them with "getting bigger!" or "great progress!" or "get those gainzzz!" If they respond with a self-critique I say something like "Well, you'll nail that too, I just know it." Nothing flatters an fbb like hearing their hard work is paying off and they are moving toward their goals.
Ah yes, you nail it with two sentences, what I am talking around in endless cycles 😁. Respect!
Many good comments from above and I agree. I admire FBBs and powerlifters because of the dedication, desire and discipline involved to their chosen sport. As a former national class athlete, I can understand and appreciate the true motives of these FBB. I'll add that many of "us" are in this echo chamber as we all have this admiration and yes arousal, me included. This website offers the many thousands of clips, photos and photo galleries. In addition links to some of the IG accounts and we can get a glimpse into the personalities of these women.
Because of their desire to achieve their goals, I am motived to keep up with my own physical activity and yes, I do much much more cross training these days so in a sense, they are coaching me on.
As @chilleus sums it up in one word: "respect!".
What. That's a by-product. Not a motivation.
I don't understand the confusion here. Ask bodybuilders why they train and you're going to get the same answer.