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I know some of the incels here think that any woman who has more muscle than they do or is even 5% stronger than the average man must be on steroids, but that isn't the reality.
A guy who is secure in himself has no need to peacock and call anyone else "incel". You give yourself away.
> Yes! Society really wants us all to believe that female body builders are Dominate and gay (penis envy?) but it's just not true…
Who is this society? Where does he say so? What words does he use? Where can I reach him if I want to ask him something?
I don't know how you wanted your reference to penis envy be interpreted, but I'll share some random thoughts anyway.
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In case he is trapped his second best option is to try to feel secure in the fantasy that women really have penises. And every way a woman can physically be better than a man or humiliate a man is a symbolic penis. But this domineering quality in women is not something that is ever envied in the sense of Freudian penis envy. In a vanishingly small amount of cases can penis envy be a motivating factor in becoming a female bodybuilder. Usually other reasons dominate. And usually penis envy simply makes a woman angry and bitter at men. This is a far easier way to take their penis away than by spending years lifting weights.
I spent some time decoding and breaking down bodybuilding poses - and before this question is asked - I am not a professional psychologist nor edcuated in symbolism. But I took inspiration from marketing psychology of other sports.
Long before I red your post zarklephaser, I have seen the double biceps pose as symbolism for penetration. The biceps are soft lumps, and suddenly get hard, "stiff". The direction is "up" - which symbolizes growth and success, otherwise seen as male traits - and it is about size. While other poses are a lot about shape and proportions, it is the one pose where you could undeniably say: "size matters". It is the one pose where fans fantasize about size like in no other. It is the one pose that penetrates peoples soul like no other -its a show off. What is the length and girth in penis, is height and girth in the biceps.
The only thing which troubles me is the negative connotation: "envy" is something compulsive and it does harm. In the context of female bodybuilding I would rather call it "pride" about something, the woman otherwise would not have. She slowly discovers the power she could have over others, built on hard work. Its earned.
The only thing which troubles me is the negative connotation: "envy" is something compulsive and it does harm. In the context of female bodybuilding I would rather call it "pride" about something, the woman otherwise would not have. She slowly discovers the power she could have over others, built on hard work. Its earned.
Envy is caused by struggling against the realization that others have something that the envious person does not. The roots of envy exist in the relationship between the mother and the child, at least according to R. D. Laing's Self and Others.
This kind of defective mother has the attitude that she is the child's everything and that the child has nothing original, interesting or meaningful in himself. He can't give the mother anything, because the mother already has him entirely. It is impossible to feel gratitude towards something you think you own. You can be happy about your dog or what he just did or about your morning cup of coffee, but you would never expect the dog or the cup of coffee to understand and receive your gratitude. This kind of mother has the child in the category of things instead of persons.
Well, sometimes people heavily tripping on LSD do think objects have feelings. But here they are extending what they already know about real persons to inanimate objects. With this problem the root of the root is in the mother's inability to feel gratitude and accept the personhood of others. But since the child is all hers, she is completely safe from envying his personhood. Though only as long as she successfully denies that the child has anything to give her that she did not cause or was not entitled to in the first place. The child will pick up on and be damaged by this.
Envy is the experience of being reminded of one's nothingness in comparison to some other person being something because he seems to have some thing that makes him more than nothing. An education, a managerial position, a sailboat, a girlfriend, when in fact that particular thing is only a reminder, not a real cause of anything. This is why it is futile for the envied person to explain that sailboats and girlfriends are not all they are made out to be. There is an infinite difference between nothing and something and no sailboat or girlfriend has ever crossed that gap.
One reason I like to write is that I realize new things when I do so. It now seems to me that penis envy is just one among an endless variety: If I only had a sailboat I would be somebody. If I only had a girlfriend I would be somebody. If I only had a penis and so on.
At the core of it is the person's inability to give, caused by his mother's inability to receive, experienced as an enormous sense of futility. He feels that others are all-powerful and can therefore always do without him or anything he could offer. This is also why he finds it unbearable to receive or feel gratitude and therefore would like to have everything in himself and by himself.
Nobody said that female bodybuilders would be motivated by envy, as in if they only had enormous muscles then they would be somebodies instead of nobodies (just enjoy all the puns you catch). Also the manhood that is referred to by penis envy is not about muscles but male social power. Sexual conquests are held by women to be a proxy for it. The height of social power is the desire of others to be led by you. Or in case of sexual conquests the desire of other women to be led by some man. I am not totally sure but I've been trying to say that muscles represent a penis to at least a certain type of male but very rarely to any female. It is not something that is objectively in them.
The penis here is a symbol with multiple mutually exclusive meanings, not a thing that is operative in all of them. Muscles as a penis are one thing, male social power as a penis is a completely different thing and only the latter can be "penis envied" in a Freudian sense. But this is about to get a bit more complicated still when I say that muscles as a penis can be secretly envied too. This time it is not about male social power but female emotional power.
Because finally, when writing this I realized that for some people, for some cases, this attraction could be an attempt to get back at the mother. To symbolically conquer her coldness, self-sufficiency, superiority, indifference or any combination of these. To use a powerful and superior female by means of one's sexuality instead of getting used by one. "You can't win against me. Can't you see how I enjoy your superiority."
Two more things. If there is masochism involved and especially if one is sexually conquering a picture or a video clip instead of an actual woman then the predicament is maintained and even augmented by the realization that nothing changed. But more importantly the lack of pleasure in the child, the male or the person who envies female power and lack of mutual pleasure in the relationship are two different problems. All the simple and easy solutions are usually directed at the first one, because the second one can only be solved rationally.
This could be why the attraction does not always translate to real life.
how many lesbians do you know irl over the age of 20 that have interest in fitness compared to hetero sexual women? I live in the city and have seen many FB fitness related groups for women spring up over the years and the truth is 90% of the women that join these groups were there to either impress their man or find one, many of them regular mom types with zero dom bones in them. I swear the only reason why people believe bodybuilding is a queer activity is because of how many gay girls dominate female sports in college/highschool and movies, it's quiet strange and unrealistic.
I think that the proportions are probably similar to the general population, maybe slightly biased towards LGBTQ+ women, if you're talking about "fitness" to mean muscles or functional strength or sports. I think there is a "fitness for the looks" that's super popular with women seeking men, with a focus on thinness and whatever level of muscle is trendy. Thigh gap, flat stomach, tiny waist, whatever is in. In general the lesbians I know, all over 20, are sportier than the straight women.
That said, it's not that interesting to argue generalities. Plenty of straight athletes. Plenty of chubby lesbians. But if I had to pick somebody for my team and all I knew was "straight woman" vs. "lesbian woman", I'd go lesbian, whether it was general population or my own group of friends. I could still lose out, but it's the way to bet.
ok i'm back after some self reflection time.
i haven't been active on here too much lately due to life stuff and IRL have been keeping to myself for a while besides work/gym/a few activities i do regularly. so while i still love the muscular look the extreme that i had it isn't quite as "bad" anymore and I have been noticing myself looking at attractive but relatively normal women. still fit, but not built, not even like the fit tiktok girls popping up all over (Heather Grimes, for example). i would love to have a woman in my life that i could share some of my things with but it's not the end all be all, and, frankly, i'm glad i'm still attracted to "normal" women and not just the athletic/muscular crowd.
though my friends would find it hilarious if after ALL THIS TIME i roll in with some normie who has never touched a barbell in her life. it's been a running joke for some time now.
ok i'm back after some self reflection time.
i haven't been active on here too much lately due to life stuff and IRL have been keeping to myself for a while besides work/gym/a few activities i do regularly. so while i still love the muscular look the extreme that i had it isn't quite as "bad" anymore and I have been noticing myself looking at attractive but relatively normal women. still fit, but not built, not even like the fit tiktok girls popping up all over (Heather Grimes, for example). i would love to have a woman in my life that i could share some of my things with but it's not the end all be all, and, frankly, i'm glad i'm still attracted to "normal" women and not just the athletic/muscular crowd.
though my friends would find it hilarious if after ALL THIS TIME i roll in with some normie who has never touched a barbell in her life. it's been a running joke for some time now.
I make mine these words.
💯 But among those who are not naturally dominant or who have no dominant streak at all there is still (anecdotally) a seemingly high percentage of muscular women who are really turned on by turning on their sexual partners with their muscle.
Some book about sexuality in general said that women enjoy being desired and men enjoy being able to give enjoyment to their partner. I think this was Michael Bader's Male Sexuality (Why Women Don't Understand It—And Men Don't Either).
It is important to notice that these two are the feminine and the masculine pattern. There are men who are like women in this respect. I think effeminate is the correct word.
Muscles on a woman are a funny contradiction. Sometimes a man desires a muscular woman and the woman likes it, because she is the object of desire. But then it becomes clear that he does it because he thinks that because of her muscles the woman will take the initiative and let him be the object of desire.
A woman who likes being dominant probably does it because she experiences the man's awe, fear, surprise and excitement as his desire for her. While the man experiences the domination as her desire for him.
Muscles on a woman are a funny contradiction. Sometimes a man desires a muscular woman and the woman likes it, because she is the object of desire. But then it becomes clear that he does it because he thinks that because of her muscles the woman will take the initiative and let him be the object of desire.
I don't disagree with this.
One of the things I like about fit women in general is their mindset, at least towards fitness. Bodybuilding takes a very single-minded, focused, sometimes intense energy that they sometimes apply to other areas in life (results may vary lol) and seeing women like that also take that initiative towards men is INCREDIBLY attractive, especially for someone like me that is a) consistently rejected or ghosted by women I find attractive and b)_ wishing that some women might approach me the way I see it happen to other men.
the one time this happened where I greenlit the reciprocation was an incredible, but short, experience. I haven't had anything like that since.
frankly, it's nice being desired. which leads many of us into the friend zone because we misinterpret a woman giving us any kind of positive attention as signs of interest, only to find out that that was the only thing she WASN'T thinking about in relation to me.
obviously, YMMV here. This is a rather recent realization for me, the last 5 years or so. Pure attraction drove the bus for many years until I was mature enough to really understand some of the dynamics at play. Unfortunately, I'm either no attractive enough for the women i'm into, or not big enough.
This is sort of relevant, but I was reading a reddit comment in an AMA about a MTF transwoman, and they were describing the difference between attraction that they felt (and orgasms) and how previously it was quick and obvious around the penis, but after transitioning it was more of a whole body affair, which may or may not be where the "tingles" women describe when they're attracted to someone come from.
💯 But among those who are not naturally dominant or who have no dominant streak at all there is still (anecdotally) a seemingly high percentage of muscular women who are really turned on by turning on their sexual partners with their muscle. YMMV, but I would say that’s a pretty good consolation even if your domination fantasies are not satisfied.