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Fascinating. All it takes for some people to abandon all pretense of "body shaming bad!", "believe all women" et al. is to see the rainbow Golden Calf under attack.
@PhilMyMuscles
Riley Gaines is the worst... Total grifter... Up until recent, she was engaged to a illegal
Even if that were true (which it demonstrably isn't, and frankly makes you sound ridiculous by even pretending it is), what does it have to do with the issue at hand?
@Gatsby28
It's not "courageous" to speak out when the only outlets she is doing so are those that are very friendly to her views like Fox News and at places like CPAC.
It's always courageous to speak out when you're countering a mainstream narrative, even if it's one that the overwhelming majority of the population disagrees with. Not many dare speak out, especially on public platforms, when you know that unhinged individuals will be mobilized against you.
@Muscles_Toez
Gaines was forced to tie for 5th place once with a genetic man in a single collegiate swim event. We’ve been hearing her mid-ass tale of woe for like two years (feels like a hundred at this point) And yeah, Riley Gains is just a ridiculous person. If there was no trans person competing, she'd still be a 5th place finisher.
This is new. Let's call it "Argument from ranking", in which the opinion of a lower-ranked athlete is used as evidence against an argument.
I really resent how politicians will yell and scream over hypotheticals (every swimmer will be trans in 5 years!!), but also ignore the real and actual problems facing female athletes.
In societal terms, there are few problems as fundamental as epistemological ones. Sports happened to be the chosen battlefield for this particular issue.
It's always courageous to speak out when you're countering a mainstream narrative, even if it's one that the overwhelming majority of the population disagrees with. Not many dare speak out, especially on public platforms, when you know that unhinged individuals will be mobilized against you.
I always thought advocating against someone's ability to do something is wrong.
Before the thread gets locked, I have one last question:
When?
As far as I'm aware, it's been legal for trans athletes to compete against genetic women in a whole range of sports for the past years. At least four years, maybe longer.
Have they all just been biding their time, waiting for a starting shot, and then THAT's when they collectively take over?
Why is every trans athlete win always a Gaines-ian mid range collegiate thing?
That's the typical argument. That "oh, it's only a few", "there aren't that many", etc etc. It doesn't matter! It's happening! And these trans athletes are indeed dominating the females. "Lia" Thomas went from being ranked in 500s when he competed as the man that he is, to being in the top 10 in the nation when he started competing as a woman. He won one race by about 4 seconds. That's like winning by a mile in swimming! In Minnesota, a boy who claimed to be a girl helped a softball team absolutely annihilate the competition to win the state championship. The team was ranked very low prior to the boy joining the team as a girl.
It doesn't matter if it happens once or twice. The reason there's been more of an uproar is because it's now happening more and more often. It's taking away real girls' abilities to compete fairly. It's taking away scholarship opportunities, etc etc. You have these vulnerable girls having to share a locker room with a boy.
Again, it's about fairness. Does it mean that every boy can win against a girl? Of course not, but you'll NEVER see any uproar about a girl who transitions to a boy competing on a boys team. Why? Because that girl wouldn't stand a snowball's chance of winning anything meaningful. She's not going to take away scholarships or championships away from the boys.
And yeah, Riley Gains is just a ridiculous person. If there was no trans person competing, she'd still be a 5th place finisher. When her story is an example of the worst-case scenario... it's shows how unserious the argument is.
That particular race was the outlier. She otherwise was a very accomplished swimmer. And no, she is not ridiculous. She brought attention to this issue, and she's absolutely a winner for doing it.
That's the typical argument. That "oh, it's only a few", "there aren't that many", etc etc. It doesn't matter! It's happening! And these trans athletes are indeed dominating the females. "Lia" Thomas went from being ranked in 500s when he competed as the man that he is, to being in the top 10 in the nation when he started competing as a woman. He won one race by about 4 seconds. That's like winning by a mile in swimming! In Minnesota, a boy who claimed to be a girl helped a softball team absolutely annihilate the competition to win the state championship. The team was ranked very low prior to the boy joining the team as a girl.
It doesn't matter if it happens once or twice. The reason there's been more of an uproar is because it's now happening more and more often. It's taking away real girls' abilities to compete fairly. It's taking away scholarship opportunities, etc etc. You have these vulnerable girls having to share a locker room with a boy.
Again, it's about fairness. Does it mean that every boy can win against a girl? Of course not, but you'll NEVER see any uproar about a girl who transitions to a boy competing on a boys team. Why? Because that girl wouldn't stand a snowball's chance of winning anything meaningful. She's not going to take away scholarships or championships away from the boys.
That particular race was the outlier. She otherwise was a very accomplished swimmer. And no, she is not ridiculous. She brought attention to this issue, and she's absolutely a winner for doing it.
Here's the thing though: sports don't actually matter. Like there's real problems. Unless there's money at stake, which I doubt there is for swimming, I don't have much sympathy.
I find this all very tedious but I do think Riley is attractive and despite a fifth place turnout she's still a star athlete and an impressive person. People say she's a grifter but I think she's very well spoken and has a lot of courage to overcome immense social pressure not to speak out. I see a lot of my wife in her - just a tough attractive woman with a strong sense of right and wrong and no fear for speaking out when she perceives an injustice. You can agree or disagree with her but I think she's fully in earnest.
I hear what you're saying, that she is doing this in earnest based on her sense of right and wrong. It's my opinion that she is perceiving injustices in places that did not ask for her opinion, which ends up casting a national spotlight on small local teams full of kids that did not ask to become pawns in a culture war. She's just creating a different kind of unfair situation for kids, all in her quest for fairness.
Here's the thing though: sports don't actually matter. Like there's real problems. Unless there's money at stake, which I doubt there is for swimming, I don't have much sympathy.
First of all, that's a terrible take. It's not always about money. Girls, many starting from a young age, work really hard to get really good at their chosen sport. It's about the competition. They get the joy of winning and the pain of losing. I'm guessing you've never played any sports. The issue is, males have a biological advantage in size, strength, speed, everything. So, it doesn't matter how hard a girl tried, she'll always be at a disadvantage. You now have boys breaking all these girls' records all over the country. Records that they worked really hard to achieve, and being broken by boys competing against girls. It is absolutely unfair, and it needs to stop.
As far as money, yes, money can be involved as well. When girls lose position, and no longer qualify for those scholarships because they were beaten by a boy, that's a big problem too. Scholarships could mean the difference between being able to afford to go to university, and not.
Bottom line is that, while I feel bad for a person who is trans, feels as if he is trapped in the wrong body, that does not give him the right to take things away from girls.
No, it’s all about money. People who don’t think so are either poor or were born rich and don’t know the difference.
C'mon man. That's just not true.
I'm not going to make blanket assumptions about you individually, but, in general, there's no amount of money that would make people accept watching their child die from cancer.
There's no amount of money that an able bodied person would take to live life as a quadriplegic.
People, generally, would not trade their health for any amount of money. Conversely, there's no amount of money people with it wouldn't trade for more time in good health.
gee1462
It's my opinion that she is perceiving injustices in places that did not ask for her opinion, which ends up casting a national spotlight on small local teams full of kids that did not ask to become pawns in a culture war. She's just creating a different kind of unfair situation for kids, all in her quest for fairness.
I'm sure you share a similar sentiment towards activists in causes you happen to agree with. The fact that "small local teams" were made a pawn of is one of the exact reasons that made people like Gaines speak up.
byrdcf27
No, it’s all about money. People who don’t think so are either poor or were born rich and don’t know the difference.
It's most certainly not all about money. People who think so are materialists (in the philosophical sense) that just can't be bothered to think a little deeper.
First of all, that's a terrible take. It's not always about money. Girls, many starting from a young age, work really hard to get really good at their chosen sport. It's about the competition. They get the joy of winning and the pain of losing. I'm guessing you've never played any sports. The issue is, males have a biological advantage in size, strength, speed, everything. So, it doesn't matter how hard a girl tried, she'll always be at a disadvantage. You now have boys breaking all these girls' records all over the country. Records that they worked really hard to achieve, and being broken by boys competing against girls. It is absolutely unfair, and it needs to stop.
As far as money, yes, money can be involved as well. When girls lose position, and no longer qualify for those scholarships because they were beaten by a boy, that's a big problem too. Scholarships could mean the difference between being able to afford to go to university, and not.
Bottom line is that, while I feel bad for a person who is trans, feels as if he is trapped in the wrong body, that does not give him the right to take things away from girls.
I disagree with two things here. First, as someone who did play sports as a kid and am now an adult, I realize how little it actually matters. It’s just about having fun and exercising. Winning and losing is, at best, table stakes. I played on a winless Little League team when I was 11, we all had the time of our lives. Whether boys play in girls sports is irrelevant because until you become a professional, it doesn't actually matter.
Second, sports scholarships are BS outside of football and basketball, which return investment immediately. Seriously, what value does swimming actually provide colleges? I’m fine with offering multiple sports at the high school level, but Title 9 at the college level is ridiculous.
C'mon man. That's just not true.
I'm not going to make blanket assumptions about you individually, but, in general, there's no amount of money that would make people accept watching their child die from cancer.
There's no amount of money that an able bodied person would take to live life as a quadriplegic.
People, generally, would not trade their health for any amount of money. Conversely, there's no amount of money people with it wouldn't trade for more time in good health.
I was talking more in a sense of normal everyday life than an actual crisis.
I disagree with two things here. First, as someone who did play sports as a kid and am now an adult, I realize how little it actually matters. It’s just about having fun and exercising. Winning and losing is, at best, table stakes. I played on a winless Little League team when I was 11, we all had the time of our lives. Whether boys play in girls sports is irrelevant because until you become a professional, it doesn't actually matter.
Second, sports scholarships are BS outside of football and basketball, which return investment immediately. Seriously, what value does swimming actually provide colleges? I’m fine with offering multiple sports at the high school level, but Title 9 at the college level is ridiculous.
With your thought process, it's no wonder that the vast majority of the population take the opposite side of where you are. This is a 90/10 issue where 90% of people think boys don't belong in girls' sports, while people like you are part of that 10% who do. In your case, you think it's "all about the money" and it doesn't matter.
You clearly have no clue what you're talking about. That's why you lose on this issue every single time.
With your thought process, it's no wonder that the vast majority of the population take the opposite side of where you are. This is a 90/10 issue where 90% of people think boys don't belong in girls' sports, while people like you are part of that 10% who do. In your case, you think it's "all about the money" and it doesn't matter.
You clearly have no clue what you're talking about. That's why you lose on this issue every single time.
I'm ambivalent towards it, because it doesn't matter. Like at all.
Because it's absurd to me that so many people care.
FUCK YOU GUYS for making me even say this, but it's absurd that so many people...nope, not gonna do it - there is a whole off-topic or whatever forum to discuss political shit.
Can the majority of us agree - regardless of whether anyone likes her personally - that Riley Gaines does not "look like a man", assuming that Simone was referring to a "typical man" (whatever that is) when she attempted to insult Riley?
But getting more to the point, the deeper questions - at least for me - are about what made Simone go THERE, a place where she herself had been bullied?
Now, I still do not think SIMONE FUCKING BILES should be engaging in internet beefs, but - against my better judgment - I said the same thing over on Twitter and the reaction was exactly what I'd predicted: some members of a certain population coming after my Twitter account because I was trying to "control what ____ women can and cannot say". It was almost as if I had set myself up, just so I could be proven right. lol
FUCK YOU GUYS for making me even say this, but it's absurd that so many people...nope, not gonna do it - there is a whole off-topic or whatever forum to discuss political shit.
Can the majority of us agree - regardless of whether anyone likes her personally - that Riley Gaines does not "look like a man", assuming that Simone was referring to a "typical man" (whatever that is) when she attempted to insult Riley?
But getting more to the point, the deeper questions - at least for me - are about what made Simone go THERE, a place where she herself had been bullied?
Now, I still do not think SIMONE FUCKING BILES should be engaging in internet beefs, but - against my better judgment - I said the same thing over on Twitter and the reaction was exactly what I'd predicted: some members of a certain population coming after my Twitter account because I was trying to "control what ____ women can and cannot say". It was almost as if I had set myself up, just so I could be proven right. lol
I would normally agree, but PC is on its way out, so those types of insults are the norm again.
That's the typical argument. That "oh, it's only a few", "there aren't that many", etc etc. It doesn't matter! It's happening! And these trans athletes are indeed dominating the females. "Lia" Thomas went from being ranked in 500s when he competed as the man that he is, to being in the top 10 in the nation when he started competing as a woman. He won one race by about 4 seconds. That's like winning by a mile in swimming! In Minnesota, a boy who claimed to be a girl helped a softball team absolutely annihilate the competition to win the state championship. The team was ranked very low prior to the boy joining the team as a girl.
It doesn't matter if it happens once or twice. The reason there's been more of an uproar is because it's now happening more and more often. It's taking away real girls' abilities to compete fairly. It's taking away scholarship opportunities, etc etc. You have these vulnerable girls having to share a locker room with a boy.
Again, it's about fairness. Does it mean that every boy can win against a girl? Of course not, but you'll NEVER see any uproar about a girl who transitions to a boy competing on a boys team. Why? Because that girl wouldn't stand a snowball's chance of winning anything meaningful. She's not going to take away scholarships or championships away from the boys.
That particular race was the outlier. She otherwise was a very accomplished swimmer. And no, she is not ridiculous. She brought attention to this issue, and she's absolutely a winner for doing it.
I can see why most people believe the points that you're making. It's true that recently, trans athletes have been more visible, and have been winning more mid titles than before.
But only because before was essentially zero. The number is still extremely, vanishingly low. The vast majority of trans athletes are just totally unremarkable.
But human beings aren't rational, and the idea of a trans girl playing sports and potentially winning causes an irrational response in people which is disproportionate to the actual harm. I'll stand by that. It's simply not a huge deal, and it's NO WHERE near important enough to justify all of the constant discourse and fighting around it.
Since we're talking about Simone Biles, I'm going to contrast SA against children. I think even the most conservative person out there would have to concede that SA against children from religious leaders and medical professionals is FAR more prevalent and harmful than trans athletes. It's freaking everywhere, and a quick google search would reveal that.
But society wants religion and needs medicine. So this stuff is swept under the rug. I don't see any senators taking exceptional statewide action against it to "protect the kids." Like they do with "protecting the kids" against books at libraries.
I'd love if there was a Riley Gaines against sex crimes by religious figures, but I don't see any out there on Fox and CNN. As a whole, we have lopsided priorities on protection, it seems.
Riley Gaines is gorgeous. Simone a great gymnast but not good looking.